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EFV-8 Club Forum / General Ford Discussion / Safety Switch at National Meet is a deduction?

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Posted By Discussion Topic: Safety Switch at National Meet is a deduction? -- page: 1 2 3     jal9846 03-31-2020 @ 8:11 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 53 Joined: Oct 2009 Since the cans of worms is open...let me give my two cents. I am a young member of the club comparatively...still under 40! I have grown up restoring these flathead V8 fords and am what you call a purist and have a high regard for correctly restored cars down to every detail, but I also value the touring, rouge, and touring A. I think we need to hold to judging the cars as close as possible for concourse. I do agree, properly installed safety items should not warrant deductions, but we do need to strike a balance between authenticity and safety. I believe a properly restored and maintained car using original type parts is just as reliable and safe as adding modern components. Most of the problems people try to fix with these modern parts is the result of underlying issues (old shoddy wiring, old used non-rebuilt parts, or poorly done repair and maintenance). As for parts no longer available or rare as hens teeth...I do think the club can adjust to the times a bit. One example is batteries for 1933-39...they simply are not available and have not been for some time. Is it correct that a person received no deduction if they have a later 1940-48 battery installed, simply because it says "Ford" on the side? I would say the proper way to handle that would be if the car is judged for dearborn and it fails by a few points....and those points were taken off for that battery missing...in that case there should be judgement allowed by judges to override those points deduction based on those parts simply not being available. Now having said that...there is plenty of margin there to properly restore a car to dearborn level...so if a car is on the brink due to one part that is impossible to obtain...I would think there is plenty of other items the owner can bring up to speed...with parts that are readily available. It's a difficult discussion...and I see both sides. Lastly, let me just leave with...the beauty of modern technology is that we have the ability to engineer things in many forms and shapes...and a little ingenuity can allow us to make new, better, longer lasting, more reliable parts that look and feel the same as original. We need to keep fueling the passion for these cars with our younger generation who has the ability and motivation to keep this innovation going! Everyone please stay safe...and get those cars ready for cruising once we are COVID clear! Justin LaChausse ford38v8 04-01-2020 @ 12:00 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 2739 Joined: Oct 2009 Justin, well said! I think you may have introduced the seed for a new understanding and recognition of a Concourse definition of unobtanium. If I understand you correctly, point deductions should continue to be deducted as before, thereby at some point inferring that the bar may be lowered for specific reason of unanimous agreement of huddled Judges that certain parts are not available at any cost, such as the Ford LF battery. By the same reasoning, should someone build or restore an acceptable substitute for such an unobtanium part, then that person should deserve full credit for his ingenuity, and in theory, have the possibility of having a 1000 point restoration. On the other hand, I do believe that this reasoning and lowered bar is already in place and operating just fine, as demonstrated by an allowance of 50 points deducted from the top award of Dearborn, (950); 100 points for first place, (900); and so on. For such occasions that there appears to be a legitimate appeal to a certain deduction, there is always an owner's option to appeal to the Meet Judge, who has the last word on all appeals up to the point of release from the field. Justin, I don't argue your reasoning, I only put it in perspective of many previous conversations and decisions on similar issues. there will always be controversial rulings, but our Judging Standards Committee has done a fantastic job over the years to keep it real out there! Oh, and yes, we need more of you young whippersnappers in the club, and taking an informed interest as you do! Alan 40 Coupe 04-01-2020 @ 5:03 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 1650 Joined: Oct 2009 Ken: Years ago I was told the fire extinguisher was mandated by the clubs insurance company. On the concourse field the extinguisher is displayed outside the vehicle. In no way distracting from the vehicles appearance. If by a Safety switch you are in reference to battery disconnect switch. It is my feeling they distract from the appearance of an original vehicle. They are unnecessary since a battery cable can be disconnected with the same effect as the switch, when stored. Ford made millions of our, early V8, vehicles, never offering a battery disconnect switch. With that said I have heard of vehicles with electrical fires, it is my feeling these fires were usually caused by the poor condition of old vehicle electrical wiring and owner or service personal with unique electrical skills. As for changing spark plugs before the concourse and after the Tech inspection, I have no problem with this. The Tech inspection is there to determine if the vehicle was assembled correctly and functions properly. There is a BIG difference in the appearance and function of a Champion 3 piece take apart spark plug or the original H-10 coke bottle spark plug to a modern spark plug which is more dependable. I believe the Club would like to see the vehicles driven to the shows. It is somewhat disturbing to me to see 20 or more enclosed car hauler trailers parked outside the shows. Then again I understand the owners caution for something they hold in high regard. This message was edited by 40 Coupe on 4-1-20 @ 5:19 AM TomO 04-01-2020 @ 8:50 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 7244 Joined: Oct 2009 First I should let everyone know that I have no skin in the game. My 40 Merc will probably not be at any more National Meets and my Lincoln is a Rouge car and not point judged. Mother Nature has told me that I need to change my lifestyle from a 40 years old's to one closer to my real age. I am glad that others have chipped in on this topic. I agree with Alan that the car needs to be operational when driven onto the Concourse. That is the most important part of having a car. Mike, with all respect, you are taking my comments wrong. I am trying to get more good cars on the Concourse and believe that relaxing the rules for parts that are not available, but are replaced with functional parts should not cause a point deduction. Justin's comments are more in the line of what I believe should happen. The only problem with allowing some cars to pass and others have to have the point deduction is that it will make some members feel cheated. IMHO, adjustments should only be made for cosmetic deductions. The Judging Standards Committee should be the one setting the standards and the Meet Judge should not vary from those standards. We all need to play by the same rules. I like to see the pre-WWII cars on the Concourse and driven in the tours. If the original specification parts are not available and the car must be driven on the Concourse, these cars will no longer be shown. 40 Coupe, I am against replacing functional parts with not functional parts. I am with Mike and Alan on this. The most important part of a meet is to be able to appreciate the workmanship and functionality of an antique car. There is nothing like the sound of a good running flathed V-8. Tom kubes40 04-01-2020 @ 9:26 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 3374 Joined: Oct 2009 Tom, I don't believe I misunderstood your comments. You want to see a change in rules that allow non original (concourse correct) parts to be utilized and see no demerit. Let's attempt to look at this in another direction. I go to great lengths to make my restorations as accurate as possible. that takes a ton of research, a ton of time, sweat and money. So a guy pulls up next to my car with a beauty of his own. Hypothetically, the only difference between our two cars is his has modern plugs because "you can't find the original plugs anymore" (not true of course - just today there's a set in the classifieds) and he gets no deductions. And here I am, searching out and paying for a set of authentic plugs getting the same amount of points. To reiterate my earlier comments: There is room for everyone in our club. Want to drive the pants off a car and can't figure out how to make it run with an authentic fuel pump? Go ahead - enjoy! Park in the touring area. I truly do not understand why touring cars will no longer "be shown" as you state. Why not? Because the owner no longer feels he can win a trophy regardless of whether or not he deserves it? Nope, I will continue to follow the rules of the club and feel good about what I won. Good = deserved. As soon as the club decides to water down the rules, I and others that truly "restore" their vehicles will no longer show. Heck, we can get a participation award anywhere... Mike "Kube" Kubarth kubes40 04-01-2020 @ 9:29 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 3374 Joined: Oct 2009 Alan, I understood your comments in regard to swapping out parts on the concourse to include more than plugs. To me, and apparently you as well, this is simply cheating. My comment was reduced to addressing plugs as that's the only thing I've ever witnessed personally. I have heard too many stories of other parts as you'd mentioned. And, if I dare ask again "how does one feel good about winning an award when he had to cheat in order to do so"? Mike "Kube" Kubarth woodiewagon46 04-01-2020 @ 1:04 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 697 Joined: Nov 2012 I don't wish to get involved with the judging aspect of this discussion however, as a retired firefighter with 25 years of service, I will comment on the fire extinguisher requirement. Most car shows from Hershey to your local car show, held on the local high school field are fairly inaccessible. Add to that, many cars are parked close together, along narrow rows, making access with a fire engine challenging to say the least. A simple gas leak, if not extinguished can turn into a huge blaze that can destroy many cars. I for one am amazed, that the vast majority of car shows I attend don't have an extinguisher requirement. Even if it's not required, we should all carry an extinguisher in our cars, and inspect it yearly, better safe than sorry! kubes40 04-01-2020 @ 3:02 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 3374 Joined: Oct 2009 Woodiewagon, Thank you for your insight. Mike "Kube" Kubarth MG 04-01-2020 @ 4:06 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 1251 Joined: Nov 2009 Is 'over restoring' considered cheating??? I've seen this many times - E.g. - powder coated frames, stainless exhaust and brake lines etc.... These cars certainly didn't come off the assembly line like that.... This message was edited by MG on 4-1-20 @ 4:14 PM kubes40 04-01-2020 @ 4:44 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 3374 Joined: Oct 2009 Over restoring is not cheating. Similar to a poor quality restoration, over restoration is simply at the opposite end of the "quality" spectrum. In fact, like poor restorations, there are standard deductions for over restoration. A number of my cars have been docked for over restoration. Nothing incorrect but simply better than Ford produced. I have NEVER argued when I'd received such a deduction. I understood the rules prior to restoring my vehicles and subsequently having them point judged. Mike "Kube" Kubarth This message was edited by kubes40 on 4-1-20 @ 4:47 PM

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