Topic: Safety Switch at National Meet is a deduction?

Kenneth M.	-- 03-30-2020 @ 7:09 AM
	OK here I go, If you don't have a Fire Extinguisher a 1000 point deduction but if you have a Safety Switch you get a 2 Point deduction. To me that don't make a lot of sense . It ok if your car burns up your house and car but the fire Extinguisher is in the car if you can get to it. Or in the middle of the night burn the house and family. It took years to let us have an electric fuel pump to stop vapor lock. That why today they pump fuel pumps in the gas tank to stop vapor lock. I think a Safety Switch is a safe way to protect your car and life. Kenneth M. Stewart
TomO	-- 03-30-2020 @ 8:10 AM
	What kind of safety switch are you talking about? IMHO the Judging Standards Committee and the Board of Directors should take a good look at the standards and revise them for the 21st century. I think that all cars should go on a short tour and then be driven on the Concourse. The most important item when the car was made was to make sure that it could be driven. If it could not start and drive at the end of the assembly line, it was pushed off to the side and repaired. Eliminate the requirement for YOM spark plugs and other parts that are replaced during maintenance and are no longer available, either old stock or correct reproduction. This will help reduce the cost of a Concourse restoration and make sure that the cars are driveable. No repairs or parts replacement should be allowed on the Concourse. Safety items like 3rd brake lights and seat belts should be accepted if they are installed neatly. Battery disconnect switches are a debatable item, when the battery is under the hood, removing the ground strap is almost as convenient as a switch. When the battery is under the floor, mounting locations become an issue. I am sure that there are other opinions on what should and should not require a point deduction. Speak up and let the Board and Committee know what you think. Tom
kubes40	-- 03-30-2020 @ 2:50 PM
	Tom, I agree with you in that cars should be operative when entering the concourse. They were delivered with everything working and as such, everything should work now. I don't recall ever seeing an electric pump on an authentic '40 Ford. Must've overlooked that in my research. Now, with respect I disagree with you on a number of points. Correct plugs are in fact available. I'd purchased three sets (24 plugs) in the past two months. Yes, they are costly -nearly $1500 for all 24 pieces. Electric fuel pump? If you or others want one, go for it. And park on the touring lot. I never have issues with vapor lock and as you no doubt realize my vehicles are as near "point perfect" as I'd surmise humanly possible. Yes, restorations costs are staggering. However, it all comes to do a few basic things. Just two at this moment I'd like to mention 1) PRIORITY. Me? I'd rather skip some other things in my life so I can afford doing proper restorations. 2) ECONOMICS. Sure restorations are costly. We all have pockets books that are either deeper or shallower than others. Ya know Tom, I find it sad that a bunch of old guys (yeah, I'm in that group) want their Dearborn award but don't want to do what it takes to EARN it. I suppose it's easier for them to change the rules so they can "win". The group I am not in nor will I ever be is the one that feels they "earn" an award when clearly they have not. This club has rules that cover a number of classes. That does a lot to allow everyone to participate. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
kubes40	-- 03-30-2020 @ 2:55 PM
	Ken, What doesn't make sense to me is why a $15 extinguisher is causing you grief. You want to add a safety switch? Go ahead. Not being authentic to the build, accept the deduction as the rules clearly state and move on. You made the choice and you knew the rules. Electric pumps were not placed in the fuel tanks of modern cars to eliminate so called vapor lock. They were placed in the tank for efficiency. Plus, the modern fuel injection systems require higher fuel pressure than a typical mechanical pump is able to deliver. Just a little "history" about electric pumps in tanks. I had a '69 Buick Riviera with an electric pump in the tank. That was the first domestic production car built as such. Carbureted, leaded fuel... Mike "Kube" Kubarth
ford38v8	-- 03-30-2020 @ 7:55 PM
	During my first Grand National Meet, I was horrified to see cars on the Concourse being stripped of their operating components to install dummy original parts. I had read the rules, which clearly stated that cars are to be checked at the Operational Checkpoint, and driven onto the Concourse. Hoods were up all over, toolboxes open, parts scattered on the ground, and museum quality cars were being built on the spot. If you want to see museum cars that don't run, go to a museum! To me, the big draw to a V8 Concourse is to see cars that are fully operational, just as Henry made them. If you can't afford the original parts, bite the bullet and take the deductions. Don't take an award you don't deserve. That's all I have to contribute to this thread. Alan
TomO	-- 03-31-2020 @ 8:47 AM
	Us old guys want younger people to join our club and enjoy the cars that we enjoy. When the cost of winning a trophy becomes too high, you turn off people from competing. I would rather see more young people in the Club than worry about correct spark plugs . We should be concerned about the costs and performance of a restoration, rather than having a correct part that has been obsolete for almost 80 years. Tom
JayChicago	-- 03-31-2020 @ 10:03 AM
	Well said, Tom. And I agree with you on the spark plugs. Seems like that judging standard should be relaxed. What about paint finish? Are modern clear coat, show-car finishes accepted without point deduction?
kubes40	-- 03-31-2020 @ 4:41 PM
	Alan, I've seen this done with spark plugs. It disturbs me to no end. To me, that's nothing but cheating. How do folks like this feel good about "winning" when they have knowingly cheated? I am proud that my parents taught me better than that. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
kubes40	-- 03-31-2020 @ 4:52 PM
	TomO, So let's say we do it your way. We change the rules so there can be more so called "winners". Cool, I and others can save a lot of time judging. Just have em show up and hand them a trophy. Hey, we can even eliminate the awards banquet. Hand the trophy out at registration! Look at how much easier things could go! Sorry my respected friend, but that's called a "participation award". When I didn't win a game, I didn't start crying "change the rules" so I had a chance at winning. Nope, I was taught (thanks Mom and Dad) that we are not all created equal. And, if I wanted something bad enough, I had to figure out how to get it. If a guy wants to play with the "big boys" he needs to put on his big boy pants, roll up his sleeves and pull out his wallet. Want to win a "participation award"? Fine, show up and park on the touring field. Or, last time I checked, there are still McDonald's show nights all over the place. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
ford38v8	-- 03-31-2020 @ 5:12 PM
	Mike, and Tom, I should regress a bit: I'm not speaking only of spark plugs, I mean all manner of bolt-ons: Distributors; coils; condensers; carburetors; voltage regulators. I've seen all these changed out while parked on the judging field. I believe that whatever configuration the car is in when it goes through the operational check, it should appear on the field with the same components. The rules provide for exceptions when a car breaks down enroute, but not as a condoned practice to plan for an exchange of parts on the field. Alan
jal9846	-- 03-31-2020 @ 8:11 PM
	Since the cans of worms is open...let me give my two cents. I am a young member of the club comparatively...still under 40! I have grown up restoring these flathead V8 fords and am what you call a purist and have a high regard for correctly restored cars down to every detail, but I also value the touring, rouge, and touring A. I think we need to hold to judging the cars as close as possible for concourse. I do agree, properly installed safety items should not warrant deductions, but we do need to strike a balance between authenticity and safety. I believe a properly restored and maintained car using original type parts is just as reliable and safe as adding modern components. Most of the problems people try to fix with these modern parts is the result of underlying issues (old shoddy wiring, old used non-rebuilt parts, or poorly done repair and maintenance). As for parts no longer available or rare as hens teeth...I do think the club can adjust to the times a bit. One example is batteries for 1933-39...they simply are not available and have not been for some time. Is it correct that a person received no deduction if they have a later 1940-48 battery installed, simply because it says "Ford" on the side? I would say the proper way to handle that would be if the car is judged for dearborn and it fails by a few points....and those points were taken off for that battery missing...in that case there should be judgement allowed by judges to override those points deduction based on those parts simply not being available. Now having said that...there is plenty of margin there to properly restore a car to dearborn level...so if a car is on the brink due to one part that is impossible to obtain...I would think there is plenty of other items the owner can bring up to speed...with parts that are readily available. It's a difficult discussion...and I see both sides. Lastly, let me just leave with...the beauty of modern technology is that we have the ability to engineer things in many forms and shapes...and a little ingenuity can allow us to make new, better, longer lasting, more reliable parts that look and feel the same as original. We need to keep fueling the passion for these cars with our younger generation who has the ability and motivation to keep this innovation going! Everyone please stay safe...and get those cars ready for cruising once we are COVID clear! Justin LaChausse
ford38v8	-- 04-01-2020 @ 12:00 AM
	Justin, well said! I think you may have introduced the seed for a new understanding and recognition of a Concourse definition of unobtanium. If I understand you correctly, point deductions should continue to be deducted as before, thereby at some point inferring that the bar may be lowered for specific reason of unanimous agreement of huddled Judges that certain parts are not available at any cost, such as the Ford LF battery. By the same reasoning, should someone build or restore an acceptable substitute for such an unobtanium part, then that person should deserve full credit for his ingenuity, and in theory, have the possibility of having a 1000 point restoration. On the other hand, I do believe that this reasoning and lowered bar is already in place and operating just fine, as demonstrated by an allowance of 50 points deducted from the top award of Dearborn, (950); 100 points for first place, (900); and so on. For such occasions that there appears to be a legitimate appeal to a certain deduction, there is always an owner's option to appeal to the Meet Judge, who has the last word on all appeals up to the point of release from the field. Justin, I don't argue your reasoning, I only put it in perspective of many previous conversations and decisions on similar issues. there will always be controversial rulings, but our Judging Standards Committee has done a fantastic job over the years to keep it real out there! Oh, and yes, we need more of you young whippersnappers in the club, and taking an informed interest as you do! Alan
40 Coupe	-- 04-01-2020 @ 5:03 AM
	Ken: Years ago I was told the fire extinguisher was mandated by the clubs insurance company. On the concourse field the extinguisher is displayed outside the vehicle. In no way distracting from the vehicles appearance. If by a Safety switch you are in reference to battery disconnect switch. It is my feeling they distract from the appearance of an original vehicle. They are unnecessary since a battery cable can be disconnected with the same effect as the switch, when stored. Ford made millions of our, early V8, vehicles, never offering a battery disconnect switch. With that said I have heard of vehicles with electrical fires, it is my feeling these fires were usually caused by the poor condition of old vehicle electrical wiring and owner or service personal with unique electrical skills. As for changing spark plugs before the concourse and after the Tech inspection, I have no problem with this. The Tech inspection is there to determine if the vehicle was assembled correctly and functions properly. There is a BIG difference in the appearance and function of a Champion 3 piece take apart spark plug or the original H-10 coke bottle spark plug to a modern spark plug which is more dependable. I believe the Club would like to see the vehicles driven to the shows. It is somewhat disturbing to me to see 20 or more enclosed car hauler trailers parked outside the shows. Then again I understand the owners caution for something they hold in high regard. This message was edited by 40 Coupe on 4-1-20 @ 5:19 AM
TomO	-- 04-01-2020 @ 8:50 AM
	First I should let everyone know that I have no skin in the game. My 40 Merc will probably not be at any more National Meets and my Lincoln is a Rouge car and not point judged. Mother Nature has told me that I need to change my lifestyle from a 40 years old's to one closer to my real age. I am glad that others have chipped in on this topic. I agree with Alan that the car needs to be operational when driven onto the Concourse. That is the most important part of having a car. Mike, with all respect, you are taking my comments wrong. I am trying to get more good cars on the Concourse and believe that relaxing the rules for parts that are not available, but are replaced with functional parts should not cause a point deduction. Justin's comments are more in the line of what I believe should happen. The only problem with allowing some cars to pass and others have to have the point deduction is that it will make some members feel cheated. IMHO, adjustments should only be made for cosmetic deductions. The Judging Standards Committee should be the one setting the standards and the Meet Judge should not vary from those standards. We all need to play by the same rules. I like to see the pre-WWII cars on the Concourse and driven in the tours. If the original specification parts are not available and the car must be driven on the Concourse, these cars will no longer be shown. 40 Coupe, I am against replacing functional parts with not functional parts. I am with Mike and Alan on this. The most important part of a meet is to be able to appreciate the workmanship and functionality of an antique car. There is nothing like the sound of a good running flathed V-8. Tom
kubes40	-- 04-01-2020 @ 9:26 AM
	Tom, I don't believe I misunderstood your comments. You want to see a change in rules that allow non original (concourse correct) parts to be utilized and see no demerit. Let's attempt to look at this in another direction. I go to great lengths to make my restorations as accurate as possible. that takes a ton of research, a ton of time, sweat and money. So a guy pulls up next to my car with a beauty of his own. Hypothetically, the only difference between our two cars is his has modern plugs because "you can't find the original plugs anymore" (not true of course - just today there's a set in the classifieds) and he gets no deductions. And here I am, searching out and paying for a set of authentic plugs getting the same amount of points. To reiterate my earlier comments: There is room for everyone in our club. Want to drive the pants off a car and can't figure out how to make it run with an authentic fuel pump? Go ahead - enjoy! Park in the touring area. I truly do not understand why touring cars will no longer "be shown" as you state. Why not? Because the owner no longer feels he can win a trophy regardless of whether or not he deserves it? Nope, I will continue to follow the rules of the club and feel good about what I won. Good = deserved. As soon as the club decides to water down the rules, I and others that truly "restore" their vehicles will no longer show. Heck, we can get a participation award anywhere... Mike "Kube" Kubarth
kubes40	-- 04-01-2020 @ 9:29 AM
	Alan, I understood your comments in regard to swapping out parts on the concourse to include more than plugs. To me, and apparently you as well, this is simply cheating. My comment was reduced to addressing plugs as that's the only thing I've ever witnessed personally. I have heard too many stories of other parts as you'd mentioned. And, if I dare ask again "how does one feel good about winning an award when he had to cheat in order to do so"? Mike "Kube" Kubarth
woodiewagon46	-- 04-01-2020 @ 1:04 PM
	I don't wish to get involved with the judging aspect of this discussion however, as a retired firefighter with 25 years of service, I will comment on the fire extinguisher requirement. Most car shows from Hershey to your local car show, held on the local high school field are fairly inaccessible. Add to that, many cars are parked close together, along narrow rows, making access with a fire engine challenging to say the least. A simple gas leak, if not extinguished can turn into a huge blaze that can destroy many cars. I for one am amazed, that the vast majority of car shows I attend don't have an extinguisher requirement. Even if it's not required, we should all carry an extinguisher in our cars, and inspect it yearly, better safe than sorry!
kubes40	-- 04-01-2020 @ 3:02 PM
	Woodiewagon, Thank you for your insight. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
MG	-- 04-01-2020 @ 4:06 PM
	Is 'over restoring' considered cheating??? I've seen this many times - E.g. - powder coated frames, stainless exhaust and brake lines etc.... These cars certainly didn't come off the assembly line like that.... This message was edited by MG on 4-1-20 @ 4:14 PM
kubes40	-- 04-01-2020 @ 4:44 PM
	Over restoring is not cheating. Similar to a poor quality restoration, over restoration is simply at the opposite end of the "quality" spectrum. In fact, like poor restorations, there are standard deductions for over restoration. A number of my cars have been docked for over restoration. Nothing incorrect but simply better than Ford produced. I have NEVER argued when I'd received such a deduction. I understood the rules prior to restoring my vehicles and subsequently having them point judged. Mike "Kube" Kubarth This message was edited by kubes40 on 4-1-20 @ 4:47 PM
MG	-- 04-01-2020 @ 5:10 PM
	Yes, 'over restorations' should be penalized....They are not correct....
40 Coupe	-- 04-02-2020 @ 6:05 AM
	Cheating is doing something deliberately against the rules. There is no rule against changing some parts after Tech and before judging. Can we drop the term "Cheating" in this conversation. I believe it was brought up to express someones impression only. I believe their impression was expressed to an extreme!
kubes40	-- 04-02-2020 @ 6:19 AM
	MG, over restorations are penalized just as the club rules mandate. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
kubes40	-- 04-02-2020 @ 6:22 AM
	40coupe, Semantics my friend... nothing more or less than semantics. Attempting to bend the rules is cheating in my opinion. Apparently to you it is acceptable as it is not specifically spelled out in the rules. By chance are you a lawyer? Mike "Kube" Kubarth
ford38v8	-- 04-02-2020 @ 4:28 PM
	Mike, you and I agree on many things, but I have to call you on this one. I think it's overly harsh to use the terms "bending the rules", and "cheating". Opinions like that are just not appropriate to use with each other without having further knowledge of the individual and the situation on the other end. While you and I agree that it surely sidesteps the intent of the operational check, I would hope you could see the other point of view also, in that as no specific rule is spelled out, those folks don't deserve to wear a label such as you said. I would prefer a gentlemanly sort of resolve such as the question asked at the operational check regarding the functionality of the windshield wipers, for which there is a mild 3 point deduction if the honest owner states that they are not functional. I would be satisfied with a gentleman's word, which itself raises the bar for both man and car. Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 4-2-20 @ 4:30 PM
kubes40	-- 04-02-2020 @ 6:54 PM
	Alan, How about we respectfully agree to disagree. I believe in the law there is something called "the rule of law" as well as "the intent of law". Just because something isn't spelled out EXACTLY does not make it correct and in this case, certainly not acceptable - to me anyway. Do you recall many years ago when if a fellow drove his car to the show, he was automatically awarded a few "bonus points"? That lasted a few years until guys "bent the rules" because it was not specifically called out just how far a guy had to drive. Turns out these guys were trailering all the way to the parking area and driving from there to the concourse. That's not cheating? If not, what would you term it? The way things are going, soon enough it'll be a total participation concourse. Show up with anything, get the Dearborn and brag to friends about how "perfect" the car is. I miss the days of past when most guys would do what's necessary to win fair and square. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
ford38v8	-- 04-02-2020 @ 11:12 PM
	Mike, I have no recollection of any "automatic bonus points" in the past, but then, I only go back to 1990 with the V8 Club. Before that, I was too busy working overtime and raising a family. What I do recall, perhaps this is what you remember? Some who pulled their cars out of trailers, then checked in to get mileage bars for their Long Distance pins. Nothing to do with judging, but yes, I'd agree, that's a pretty convenient misunderstanding of the purpose of that pin, which was kind of a Participation Award itself. You're lamenting the loss of "Days of Past"? I too, for the loss of so many good V8ers from our ranks, but I certainly would never lay a blanket judgement of cheating on "most guys" of the present crop of V8ers. I really don't think you meant that the way it reads, Mike! Lighten up, won't you? Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 4-2-20 @ 11:13 PM
kubes40	-- 04-03-2020 @ 6:10 AM
	I certainly didn't mean "most guys" at all... Lighten up? I'm fine. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
TomO	-- 04-04-2020 @ 11:16 AM
	1979 was the first meet that I had my Mercury at. There was a mandatory tour to Greenfield Village. Other meets in the 1980's also required the tour. Then it was changed to just the Operational check, because some owners did not want to get a stone chip or have an accident on the Tour. Stone chips are easily repaired and accidents can happen any time that a car is out of its garage. I still think that a short mandatory tour be part of the meet. I also believe that any car pushed onto the Concourse have a 1,000 point deduction and wrenching on the Concourse be prohibited with a 1,000 point deduction. If a vehicle is not operational, it does not fit the description of the way it left the factory or for that matter the way it was when it was sold. If the rules on parts need to be changed, to make sure that only operational vehicles are judged and to keep all models of the cars operational, then it should happen. The Bylaws may need to be changed so that the Judging Standards Committee can change the rules so that a vehicle can be restored, driven. and shown. The goal is not to have the prettiest car that spends its life going around in a trailer or sitting in a garage, but to have the cars out on the roads where other people can enjoy them. Tom
kubes40	-- 04-04-2020 @ 12:01 PM
	tomO, I tend to agree with nearly everything you have stated. I'd be willing to do a short tour to prove my restored vehicles operate as intended prior to entering the concourse. There are currently classes for vehicles of every level. I don't believe any changes are necessary nor required. My goal is to have the most accurately restored vehicle(s) on the concourse. Being "pretty" is kind of part and parcel of that process. I had long ago come to the realization that I enjoy the restoration process much more than touring. probably not as mentally healthy as simply touring but nonetheless, it's very rewarding to me. Mike "Kube" Kubarth

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