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EFV-8 Club Forum / General Mercury Discussion / '39 Merc starter button R&R

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Discussion Topic: '39 Merc starter button R&R -- page: 1 2 3

flatcreeker

10-09-2021 @ 12:18 PM

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TomO-

Greetings. Thanks for the information. I have read the two pieces on Second Chance (and book marked there website). It confirms my general understanding about function of Gen and Reg. I can't say I digested the details of the generator function. And some of the nuances of the regulator went past me. I do understand the general function of the three coils and relays.

You mention your Generator Test Set. Is this something which functions with generator and regulator installed on Merc or on a test bench? My guy did all the last testing on vehicle with a handheld multimeter with an induction ammeter. I recall he got both excessively high voltage and amperage. That tells me, right or wrong, that both Fld and Arm coil/relay are out of adjustment. Or, as you indicated, possibly something amiss in the generator grounding or an incorrect regulator.

Do you have a part number for the correct voltage regulator?

Also, my generator pulley is smaller diameter than what I see in the Ford Service Bulletin S-10000, which calls for the 91A generator pulley OD to be 3.68". Mine measures about 3.18" measured at the forward most flange OD. I don't see how this would affect the generator/regulator function, other than result in a lower engine rpm when the cutout closes and the fld and arm relays cycle. I understand that pulley size could vary depending on customer's type of service.

Am I capable of testing the generator for faulty internal grounding with only a volt meter?

I plan to call Third Gen on Monday about a new Regulator and return to the cabin and hands-on the Merc on Wednesday.

TomO

10-07-2021 @ 8:38 AM

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The contact points in the cut out relay of the voltage regulator probably had some corrosion from lack of use. The cutout relay picks and closes the points when the voltage from the generator reaches 6.3V - 6.9V. When the points close, they complete the circuit that allows the voltage regulator current relays to operate.

Here is a link to how generators work http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/91.cfm

Here is a link to how voltage regulators work http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/83.cfm

Your generator is a type B generator. Type B generators have and internally grounded field.

While you are waiting for the new voltage regulator, have your generator checked for unwanted grounding. When you remove or install a generator or voltage regulator always disconnect the battery. Leave the field wire disconnected so you can polarize the generator by touching the field wire from the generator to the BATT terminal of the regulator.

Tom

Kens 36

10-06-2021 @ 7:15 AM

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If you call Third Gen, wait until next week. Michael is in Hershey this week.

Ken

flatcreeker

10-05-2021 @ 7:17 PM

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Greetings TomO=

Just in from the Savannah Airport. I took a bit of a vacation out west. Hadn't seen the big mountains since Covid started. Actually my first commercial flight in about 20 months. Good to see the other side of the hill.

Have to tend to some medical stuff before returning to the cabin and the Merc; curse of the aging process. I'm not complaining mind you. I'm in pretty good shape for a 75 year old coot.

The regulator issues began with a battery too weak to turn over the engine after one 40-50 mile run. Found the cutout in regulator not closing. That was the beginning of replacing the regulator. Other than simply a bad regulator, what might precipitate that bad cutout? As mentioned previously, I'd put about 1,500 miles on the Merc since acquiring with no relate issues.

Will contact Third Gen for a regulator. They don't seem to mention Mercury, period. Am I to assume if they say regulator for a '39 Ford, it's good for a '39 Merc? Plan to telephone them to order to make sure we're singing from the same song-sheet.

Best to you and thanks again.

TomO

09-27-2021 @ 8:20 AM

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It sounds like you have burned out the Field resister again. Your problem may be that you are using the wrong voltage regulator. Another possible cause fir your problem is a short in the armature or the wiring to ground. You need to have the generator armature and armature wiring checked for an unwanted ground and then replace the voltage regulator with one from a trusted source. Whenever you service the generator or voltage regulator, make sure that you have the battery disconnected.

I would not buy a voltage regulator from E-Bay, because many vendors are just selling stuff that they think is correct for your car. If you don't know the difference, you could cause problems. You can have your original voltage regulator tested or buy a new one from a trusted source like Third Gen on the east coast or C&G Ford parts on the west coast.

There are 3 relays in a voltage regulator, one is the cutout to prevent the generator from trying to motor, another is the current regulator to adjust the amount of current the generator puts out and the 3rd is the voltage regulator to regulate the voltage that the generator puts out.

When I adjust a voltage regulator, I check all 3 relays for correct adjustment, using a generator test set. My test set also checks for unwanted grounding conditions. This allows me to do the settings without damaging the generator or voltage regulator.

Tom

flatcreeker

09-24-2021 @ 1:31 PM

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I have constructed a wedge from non conductive material with which to bend tab up with better control. I have tested it on bad regulator and it holds promise.

What do you think?

Also, can you recommend a source for good US regulators? I'd like to keep a spare on hand. They're not cheap but I ain't getting no younger.

Thanks for your continued counsel.

flatcreeker

09-24-2021 @ 1:25 PM

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Drove Merc to generator shop with generator disconnected. Technician ck'd regulator on vehicle, found not functioning correctly. Removed regulator and found field resistor under base burned.

Installed new regulator. Tested on Merc. Found to be putting out 8.9 volts at battery. He performed a multitude of other checks I didn't understand. Said to drive it a bit and see if it settled down and advise. I don't care for that approach. Drove a bit and ck'd: 9 Volts at battery. Dash gauge registered a needle width past the N square but not to the H. The Merc was running flawlessly; no stumble/stutter. It did stumble a bit driving on the battery w/o generator.

The original regulator (one on Merc when I bought rather, and had been on it for a while-I put 1,600 miles on it with this regulator with no issues) is marked 7141 6V JC6, and came with a blue cover (painted black). The 3 subsequent regulators had same 7141 6V and blue cover but different final three alpha numeric designations (date codes?). I am told all were US manufacture. I am not going to drive the Merc with this gen output.

Other than killing another regulator, what harm can I do adjusting the voltage relay spring tab for lower voltage, provided I only decrease the voltage? If I see it right, the spring has only about 1/16-3/32" of travel. I don't have much confidence in my ability to bend the spring tab UP with needle nose pliers with any degree of precision(reducing spring tension and reducing voltage required to open contacts.

TomO

09-22-2021 @ 8:10 AM

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I would not drive the car with the generator connected until the voltage regulator is straightened out. When you turn on your headlights, you are using some of the current that the generator is putting out, but the voltage readings show that it is putting out at maximum capacity and you could damage the generator by driving it.

Your dash unit may be reading a little low, but that is usually not a problem when the voltage regulator and generator are working. The N block should be reached when the voltage reaches 6.75 V and extends to 8.25V. Under normal daytime driving conditions the gauge needle should be in the left hand to center portion of the N block. When your battery is fully charged, the needle could move past the center line, but should not go past the block.

To check the gauge, connect the black lead of your meter to the left hand terminal of the gauge and the red lead to a good ground. Turn on the ignition switch and compare the voltmeter reading to the gauge. The gauge needle should be at the unmarked line to the left of the N block and your volt meter should read 6.0-6.3V.

Tom

flatcreeker

09-22-2021 @ 6:38 AM

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I have performed the voltage cks at the battery with two digital and two vintage analog meters. They all read within .2 -.5 volts. The analog meters are basic handheld dwell/tachometer units with a voltage function and difficult to read in increments less than .5 volts (one has a 0-16v range and the other 0-20v range).

At its' highest reading, the instrument panel battery gauge needle was just about 1/2 needle width above the N dark block toward the H.

I jumped a ground from generator case bolt to regulator mounting screw with no difference in volt reading.

Yesterday, I drove the Merc about 15 miles to see how I could manage the voltage by coasting downhill in neutral whenever possible and turning on headlights. Generally that worked. Once when the needle on dash gauge was at its' highest, the headlight circuit breaker buzzed when I switched the headlights on (guess that's what I was hearing as I hadn't heard it before). It sounded like old electromechanical circuit breakers we used in some of the school buses we built back in the 770-80s). If I waited until the gauge dropped back into the N box, headlights engaged without the buzz and did serve to reduce the gauge reading a bit.

I hope to drive the Merc to the gen shop today or tomorrow.

I'll tackle the possible distributor arcing when I get this regulator matter resolved.

Again, thanks for your counsel; I'm learning.

TomO

09-18-2021 @ 8:25 AM

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First question is what kind of voltmeter are you using? Analog (type with a needle) or digital? A digital meter can give an incorrect reading due to the electrical noise from the ignition and generator.

Does the dash gauge go past normal to the H? If the voltage was truly at 8.9V the gauge should have been pegged on the left side.

If you are using an analog meter or the dash gauge goes to the H, you might still have a grounding problem. Take a jumper wire and connect it between the case of the generator (use one of the bolts holding the case together) to the mounting screw of the voltage regulator. If the voltage now stays in the N range or lower of the dash gauge (7.2-7.6V using an analog meter), your problem is grounding. If the jumper makes no differences, your new voltage regulator is not doing the job. I would not try to adjust it without having a professional grade generator/regulator test equipment.

If you want to drive the car to the to the shop, disconnect the grounding strap from the battery, charge the battery, remove the ARM and FLD wires from the generator and insulate them from grounding. Connect the grounding strap to the battery and start the car and drive it to the shop. I drove my 40 Mercury about 60 miles that way and still had enough battery left to start it.

Your split second ignition problem could be the distributor rotor arcing to the shaft. This is a known problem with aftermarket rotors. The fix is 1/2" shrink tubing or wrapping the narrow section of the distributor shaft with electrical tape.

Let us know how you make out.

Tom

This message was edited by TomO on 9-18-21 @ 8:29 AM

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