| flatcreeker | -- 08-09-2021 @ 10:11 AM |
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Have a very wonky feeling starter button which makes inconsistent/hit-or-miss contact; shall replace. Anybody have a trick for removing the existing starter button button? I've heard it's ornery. I can't tell if there are any notches in the round hole in the dash for aligning to remove or if the retainers on the barrel of the switch must be compressed for extraction. I've been able to make a snappy with my iphone camera behind the dash but not detailed enough for a conclusion.
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| TomO | -- 08-10-2021 @ 7:23 AM |
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The "retainers on the barrel of the switch" must be compressed in order to remove the starter button from the dash. Disconnect the battery, remove the wire from the switch, then compress the two keepers and push the switch out from the front. Tom
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| 39 Ken | -- 08-11-2021 @ 6:58 AM |
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Before changing out the starter button, I would remove the button and clean up the contact area where the button meets the dash. All the button does is ground the solenoid through the dash to complete the electrical circuit to cause the starter to operate. The "retainers" that Tom references is where I have found the ground contact to be insufficient. Clean and "shine up" the retainers and the area of the dash where they meet. Also, open up the retainer spring action a bit so the button is tighter in the hole where it resides.
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| flatcreeker | -- 08-14-2021 @ 8:55 AM |
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I failed to mention that the pink button sometimes sticks in the metal bezel. I have a new switch on order and when installing I will make sure the contact areas are clean for a good ground. Thanks for your input.
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| flatcreeker | -- 09-11-2021 @ 3:31 PM |
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I did remove the wonky starter button. Cleaned the grounding area, installed an all metal NOS starter button and it works superbly! Getting that weird little bullet connector in the strange connector was a %#!@*%^$# task. New all steel button has a very positive engagement and feels much better than the original '39 Merc button. I like to stay original but am swayed by reliable performance upgrades.
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| alexthecarguy | -- 09-15-2021 @ 7:18 PM |
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Your hard work paid off, I am glad that everything work in your favor. What's your next plan now?
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| flatcreeker | -- 09-18-2021 @ 7:06 AM |
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Haven't checked in here in a bit. Well, a lot has happened since the starter button. I have been having a stutter/stumble after a few warm-up miles. It's like a split-second electrical failure. It gets worse as I go along. It could be a fuel issue but for whatever reason, my sense is it of electrical origin. I suspect the coil. I cleaned out clear glass fuel bowl which had a very light coating of very fine black dust in the bottom (it could not be seen until I removed the bowl). Downstream of that was a paper element clear plastic fuel filter which I replaced with new. I cut old filter open and it was cleaner than clean. Then after a few short test drives and a 15 mile drive (where it did the stutter/stumble consistently), I shut down and then decided I'd restart and see what the spark looked like with the engine well heated (I had checked the spark at a plug previously and it was bright blue and 1/2-5/8"). It wouldn't turn over. Voltage at batt showed 5.1 volts. I charged batt, started, checking cut-out relay in regulator. It was not closing at any rpm. I removed gen and regulator and took to an old-school battery and ignition guy. He placed on machine and pronounced bad regulator (the cutout relay was showing a meandering voltage up and down the scale). He ordered new regulator (US made, identical to what was on it). He mounted all on machine and adjusted regulator to max charge at 7.4 volts, even videoed with phone showing testing and final readings. I'm leaving out a lot of boring and stupid stuff on my part, like burning up the first new reg he provided). I'm learning by scr*w*ng up; slow, expensive, but effective. Installed gen and new regulator (being certain, this time, regulator was well grounded to firewall, wire brushing mounting surface, using star washers). Ran engine and ckd voltage at battery. All was looking good but when warmed up, voltage at battery continued to creep up at 1,200 rpm. When it got to 8.9V, I reduced rpm to high idle and it came down to the 7 volt range, 6.4 volts at normal idle. I shut it down, went in the house and got a beer. This was last evening. I really don't wish to remove the generator and regulator (yet again) to take to shop and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to drive it to the shop, a trip of about 18 miles, from fear the voltage might cook something. I could attempt to adjust the regulator myself but my test equipment doesn't lend itself to engine running, under the hood, leaning all the way across the engine with needle nose pliers to bend the spring tab and adjust, test, adjust, test, adjust. Arrrggghhhh....
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| TomO | -- 09-18-2021 @ 8:25 AM |
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First question is what kind of voltmeter are you using? Analog (type with a needle) or digital? A digital meter can give an incorrect reading due to the electrical noise from the ignition and generator. Does the dash gauge go past normal to the H? If the voltage was truly at 8.9V the gauge should have been pegged on the left side. If you are using an analog meter or the dash gauge goes to the H, you might still have a grounding problem. Take a jumper wire and connect it between the case of the generator (use one of the bolts holding the case together) to the mounting screw of the voltage regulator. If the voltage now stays in the N range or lower of the dash gauge (7.2-7.6V using an analog meter), your problem is grounding. If the jumper makes no differences, your new voltage regulator is not doing the job. I would not try to adjust it without having a professional grade generator/regulator test equipment. If you want to drive the car to the to the shop, disconnect the grounding strap from the battery, charge the battery, remove the ARM and FLD wires from the generator and insulate them from grounding. Connect the grounding strap to the battery and start the car and drive it to the shop. I drove my 40 Mercury about 60 miles that way and still had enough battery left to start it. Your split second ignition problem could be the distributor rotor arcing to the shaft. This is a known problem with aftermarket rotors. The fix is 1/2" shrink tubing or wrapping the narrow section of the distributor shaft with electrical tape. Let us know how you make out. Tom This message was edited by TomO on 9-18-21 @ 8:29 AM
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| flatcreeker | -- 09-22-2021 @ 6:38 AM |
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I have performed the voltage cks at the battery with two digital and two vintage analog meters. They all read within .2 -.5 volts. The analog meters are basic handheld dwell/tachometer units with a voltage function and difficult to read in increments less than .5 volts (one has a 0-16v range and the other 0-20v range). At its' highest reading, the instrument panel battery gauge needle was just about 1/2 needle width above the N dark block toward the H. I jumped a ground from generator case bolt to regulator mounting screw with no difference in volt reading. Yesterday, I drove the Merc about 15 miles to see how I could manage the voltage by coasting downhill in neutral whenever possible and turning on headlights. Generally that worked. Once when the needle on dash gauge was at its' highest, the headlight circuit breaker buzzed when I switched the headlights on (guess that's what I was hearing as I hadn't heard it before). It sounded like old electromechanical circuit breakers we used in some of the school buses we built back in the 770-80s). If I waited until the gauge dropped back into the N box, headlights engaged without the buzz and did serve to reduce the gauge reading a bit. I hope to drive the Merc to the gen shop today or tomorrow. I'll tackle the possible distributor arcing when I get this regulator matter resolved. Again, thanks for your counsel; I'm learning.
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| TomO | -- 09-22-2021 @ 8:10 AM |
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I would not drive the car with the generator connected until the voltage regulator is straightened out. When you turn on your headlights, you are using some of the current that the generator is putting out, but the voltage readings show that it is putting out at maximum capacity and you could damage the generator by driving it. Your dash unit may be reading a little low, but that is usually not a problem when the voltage regulator and generator are working. The N block should be reached when the voltage reaches 6.75 V and extends to 8.25V. Under normal daytime driving conditions the gauge needle should be in the left hand to center portion of the N block. When your battery is fully charged, the needle could move past the center line, but should not go past the block. To check the gauge, connect the black lead of your meter to the left hand terminal of the gauge and the red lead to a good ground. Turn on the ignition switch and compare the voltmeter reading to the gauge. The gauge needle should be at the unmarked line to the left of the N block and your volt meter should read 6.0-6.3V. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 09-24-2021 @ 1:25 PM |
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Drove Merc to generator shop with generator disconnected. Technician ck'd regulator on vehicle, found not functioning correctly. Removed regulator and found field resistor under base burned. Installed new regulator. Tested on Merc. Found to be putting out 8.9 volts at battery. He performed a multitude of other checks I didn't understand. Said to drive it a bit and see if it settled down and advise. I don't care for that approach. Drove a bit and ck'd: 9 Volts at battery. Dash gauge registered a needle width past the N square but not to the H. The Merc was running flawlessly; no stumble/stutter. It did stumble a bit driving on the battery w/o generator. The original regulator (one on Merc when I bought rather, and had been on it for a while-I put 1,600 miles on it with this regulator with no issues) is marked 7141 6V JC6, and came with a blue cover (painted black). The 3 subsequent regulators had same 7141 6V and blue cover but different final three alpha numeric designations (date codes?). I am told all were US manufacture. I am not going to drive the Merc with this gen output. Other than killing another regulator, what harm can I do adjusting the voltage relay spring tab for lower voltage, provided I only decrease the voltage? If I see it right, the spring has only about 1/16-3/32" of travel. I don't have much confidence in my ability to bend the spring tab UP with needle nose pliers with any degree of precision(reducing spring tension and reducing voltage required to open contacts.
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| flatcreeker | -- 09-24-2021 @ 1:31 PM |
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I have constructed a wedge from non conductive material with which to bend tab up with better control. I have tested it on bad regulator and it holds promise. What do you think? Also, can you recommend a source for good US regulators? I'd like to keep a spare on hand. They're not cheap but I ain't getting no younger. Thanks for your continued counsel.
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| TomO | -- 09-27-2021 @ 8:20 AM |
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It sounds like you have burned out the Field resister again. Your problem may be that you are using the wrong voltage regulator. Another possible cause fir your problem is a short in the armature or the wiring to ground. You need to have the generator armature and armature wiring checked for an unwanted ground and then replace the voltage regulator with one from a trusted source. Whenever you service the generator or voltage regulator, make sure that you have the battery disconnected. I would not buy a voltage regulator from E-Bay, because many vendors are just selling stuff that they think is correct for your car. If you don't know the difference, you could cause problems. You can have your original voltage regulator tested or buy a new one from a trusted source like Third Gen on the east coast or C&G Ford parts on the west coast. There are 3 relays in a voltage regulator, one is the cutout to prevent the generator from trying to motor, another is the current regulator to adjust the amount of current the generator puts out and the 3rd is the voltage regulator to regulate the voltage that the generator puts out. When I adjust a voltage regulator, I check all 3 relays for correct adjustment, using a generator test set. My test set also checks for unwanted grounding conditions. This allows me to do the settings without damaging the generator or voltage regulator. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 10-05-2021 @ 7:17 PM |
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Greetings TomO= Just in from the Savannah Airport. I took a bit of a vacation out west. Hadn't seen the big mountains since Covid started. Actually my first commercial flight in about 20 months. Good to see the other side of the hill. Have to tend to some medical stuff before returning to the cabin and the Merc; curse of the aging process. I'm not complaining mind you. I'm in pretty good shape for a 75 year old coot. The regulator issues began with a battery too weak to turn over the engine after one 40-50 mile run. Found the cutout in regulator not closing. That was the beginning of replacing the regulator. Other than simply a bad regulator, what might precipitate that bad cutout? As mentioned previously, I'd put about 1,500 miles on the Merc since acquiring with no relate issues. Will contact Third Gen for a regulator. They don't seem to mention Mercury, period. Am I to assume if they say regulator for a '39 Ford, it's good for a '39 Merc? Plan to telephone them to order to make sure we're singing from the same song-sheet. Best to you and thanks again.
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| Kens 36 | -- 10-06-2021 @ 7:15 AM |
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If you call Third Gen, wait until next week. Michael is in Hershey this week. Ken
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| TomO | -- 10-07-2021 @ 8:38 AM |
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The contact points in the cut out relay of the voltage regulator probably had some corrosion from lack of use. The cutout relay picks and closes the points when the voltage from the generator reaches 6.3V - 6.9V. When the points close, they complete the circuit that allows the voltage regulator current relays to operate. Here is a link to how generators work http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/91.cfm Here is a link to how voltage regulators work http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/83.cfm Your generator is a type B generator. Type B generators have and internally grounded field. While you are waiting for the new voltage regulator, have your generator checked for unwanted grounding. When you remove or install a generator or voltage regulator always disconnect the battery. Leave the field wire disconnected so you can polarize the generator by touching the field wire from the generator to the BATT terminal of the regulator. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 10-09-2021 @ 12:18 PM |
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TomO- Greetings. Thanks for the information. I have read the two pieces on Second Chance (and book marked there website). It confirms my general understanding about function of Gen and Reg. I can't say I digested the details of the generator function. And some of the nuances of the regulator went past me. I do understand the general function of the three coils and relays. You mention your Generator Test Set. Is this something which functions with generator and regulator installed on Merc or on a test bench? My guy did all the last testing on vehicle with a handheld multimeter with an induction ammeter. I recall he got both excessively high voltage and amperage. That tells me, right or wrong, that both Fld and Arm coil/relay are out of adjustment. Or, as you indicated, possibly something amiss in the generator grounding or an incorrect regulator. Do you have a part number for the correct voltage regulator? Also, my generator pulley is smaller diameter than what I see in the Ford Service Bulletin S-10000, which calls for the 91A generator pulley OD to be 3.68". Mine measures about 3.18" measured at the forward most flange OD. I don't see how this would affect the generator/regulator function, other than result in a lower engine rpm when the cutout closes and the fld and arm relays cycle. I understand that pulley size could vary depending on customer's type of service. Am I capable of testing the generator for faulty internal grounding with only a volt meter? I plan to call Third Gen on Monday about a new Regulator and return to the cabin and hands-on the Merc on Wednesday.
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| TomO | -- 10-11-2021 @ 7:43 AM |
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My test set will test the generator and voltage regulator on the car. I don't know how your guy set the regulator, but it is unusual to have to adjust a new regulator. From your description of the problem, I think that your high voltage are caused by no regulation due to a shorted shunt resister in the field circuit of the regulator. The most common cause of this is a shorted or grounded armature or in the generator. It could also be caused by something on the firewall touching the resisters on the bottom of the voltage regulator. If you have the battery connected when you change voltage regulators, you might damage the regulator. I don't know what P/N Third Gen uses for their voltage regulator, just ask for one for a 1939 Mercury. The smaller pulley would not be contributing to your problem. It just allows the generator to provide voltage at a lower RPM. "Am I capable of testing the generator for faulty internal grounding with only a volt meter?" I don't have a procedure to do this with just a volt meter. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 10-14-2021 @ 9:40 AM |
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Back at the cabin and the Merc. I'm glad to see it didn't run off. My guy didn't make any adjustments to the new regulator he installed. I remove the battery grnd cable every time before working on/removing/installing anything electrical. There is no contact between resistors under regulator and firewall. I ordered a regulator from 3rd Gen, only specifying '39 Merc. Hope to have tomorrow or Saturday. I have continuity between the generator case and field terminal on generator. Same with case and terminal on back of generator. Same between field terminal and terminal on back of generator Is that as it should be? Seems a bit incestuous. I understand voltage at battery when charging by generator should max at between 7.2V-7.5V. What should be max current? Should I test for max current with lights and accessories on or off? I want a multimeter with clamp type ammeter. Could you recommend one? Absent advice to the contrary, I'll go with a Fluke. I know I'm likely looking at $100-300. I'm ok with that as I don't see tool costs as frivolous. Are there any analog induction ammeters out there? The only analog ammeters I see require an in-line device. Thanks again for your counsel. I am learning, but d*mn it seems slow. You know you could save me a lot of time if you came and spent a week at the cabin. This message was edited by flatcreeker on 10-14-21 @ 11:37 AM
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| TomO | -- 10-15-2021 @ 8:37 AM |
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I have been using a Klein Tools Electrical Tester that I bought at Home Depot for doing electrical work around the house for the past 9 years and have been happy with it. I find little use for an ammeter in maintaining my old cars. A good analog multi-meter is useful. Most of the time I use the analog meter on my automotive test set that includes a dwell meter and tachometer. I have used the Fluke meters in the past and they are very good. Both the Arm and Field terminals will read continuity to ground. See attached photo. Max current on your generator should be 30 Amps, if the generator has not been modified to 40 amps. Make sure that the generator and voltage regulator are grounded. Again, the voltage regulator should not need any adjustment. Have your generator tested again by the generator shop, then install it and the new regulator at the same time. Polarize the generator by touching the field wire to the BAT terminal of the voltage regulator. Then check that the generator and voltage regulator have good grounds. Now you should be good to go. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 10-21-2021 @ 10:48 AM |
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Things related to generator/regulator continue to be all over the place. Readings at battery range from 6.3v at 1250 rpm to 8.6v (and still climbing) then returning to 6.4v at idle. Sometimes the voltage increases in a textbook manner as rpm pass the expected cut-out threshold and sometimes not until 1400 rpm. The only consistent seems to be the return to 6.4v as rpm return down to idle. No adjustments have been made to this 3rd regulator. Yesterday, during a short 4 mile test drive, the dash gauge indicated an overcharging condition. I pulled over and ck'd voltage at battery: 8.1v at 1400 rpm. I returned home keeping engine rpm as low as possible and coasting at idle much of the time. Once home, I raised hood and went through the process. 6.4v at idle, steady at 7.5v at 1400, then after about 2 minutes it started steadily climbing to 8+ v at 1400. This seems to indicate that the regulator "can" function properly. Makes me think the generator has something hinky going on. I am weary of trying to do it myself and my confidence in my generator shop is waning. Going to a big car show/swap meet on Saturday (regrettably not in the Merc) and hope to get a lead on a shop to take it to for generator rebuild and new regulator install and check-out on vehicle. This message was edited by flatcreeker on 10-22-21 @ 7:00 AM
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| flatcreeker | -- 10-22-2021 @ 7:17 AM |
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Also- I am trying to identify my generator by PN. Based on pulley size (3 3/32" OD measured at forward flange and 4.0" measured at fan), which, of course could have been changed, and also photo similarity and height measurement of the mounting bracket/front end plate, it is not original to a 1939 Mercury. Maybe 21A 10000, a PN indicated by several manuals as the replacement for the 91A 10000.
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| TomO | -- 10-22-2021 @ 8:20 AM |
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There are 3 Regional Groups in GA, contact one of them for help with your problem. You should be able to get a reference for a good electrical shop from one of them. Do not drive the car with the generator connected, you may do more damage. Tom
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| TomO | -- 10-22-2021 @ 10:43 AM |
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Your problem still sounds like a bad ground. Connect your voltmeter COM lead to the generator case and the + lead of the battery post, not the cable connection, while the engine is running at about 1,000 rpm. The meter should read less than 0.1V. If that is OK, do the same to the regulator mounting base. If either of them read higher than 0.1V you have a grounding problem. Do not run the engine for a long period of time as you could damage the regulator or generator. If I remember correctly you should have a grounding cable from the battery to the firewall and another from the firewall to the engine,probably a head bolt. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 10-23-2021 @ 2:04 PM |
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Greetings- I accomplished the checks between generator case and + batt terminal, and between regulator mounting and + batt terminal. Checks revealed no voltage present, not even continuity indicated. Generator was putting out 8.1v and climbing at time of checks. Returned to 6.4v at idle (at battery). I have a continuity tester which resembles the typical ice-pick with light-in-handle and wire lead with clip. Only this one has a digital display in handle and matches accuracy of my digital multimeter and vintage analog volt meter. It also indicates polarity: green light = pos ground, red light = neg ground. Can I use this to determine polarity of generator and avoid the polarizing process (if pos grnd is indicated) and if so, how do I connect? Volt check at battery indicated initial cut-in was slow to occurr, requiring 2-3 minutes at 1000+ rpm before voltage at battery rose above 6.4v. Then cks described above were accomplished. Battery + grounded to firewall via a short flat braided strap and block grounded to firewall by flat braided strap. All ground connections under the hood have been cleaned and in some cases star washers added. This message was edited by flatcreeker on 10-24-21 @ 8:21 AM
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| TomO | -- 10-24-2021 @ 9:26 AM |
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I am having a problem understanding your post. You said that there was no voltage between the generator case or the regulator mounting and the POS post of the battery. Then you go on to say that there was no continuity between them. If you have a good grounding the case of the generator and the mounting base for the regulator should show continuity to the POS post of the battery. My instincts tell me that you equipment was not functioning properly or the grounding cable from the battery to the firewall is open. At this point, I feel that you should get some local help. Please contact the Regional Group nearest you for assistance in finding a good electrical shop to help you. You can find the contact information in the Regional Group Directory on the left side of this site. Tom
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| flatcreeker | -- 10-24-2021 @ 3:23 PM |
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I'm an idiot. I retraced my steps with continuity check. Thought I had the auditory alarm "on" but I had it "off". I DO HAVE CONTINUITY but no voltage between generator case and ground and likewise with regulator base. You have been most patient TomO. I will join one of the local chapters. Been trying to decide which one. None are proximate and I don't do Atlanta. Best to you- Doug
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