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EFV-8 Club Forum / General Mercury Discussion / '47 Merc Rear passenger window regulator

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Discussion Topic: '47 Merc Rear passenger window regulator

len47merc

12-31-2013 @ 2:15 PM

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The original pot metal shaft for the rear passenger window lift handle was toast upon receipt of the car. Obtained a quality replacement from Job Lot for the shaft/gear which I am sure many of you know requires drilling (or grinding) and removal of 3 rivets and replacement of the same to complete the repair. Have all the tools to do this and have everything disassembled and ready (rivets removed) but cannot figure out how to disassemble the window regulator assembly to access the back of the rivets with the rivet punch anvil without destroying the window regulator assembly. One rivet is fully exposed and easily accessed but the backs of the other 2 are between the mounting flange bracket and the 1/2 moon window lift gearing. It is not intuitively obvious to me how to (or even if it is possible to) rotate the two (after spring removal) such that the back of the remaining two rivets are exposed - all other joints excepting for the stop screw have permanent hammered/punched-flat fasteners as well. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Steve

TomO

01-04-2014 @ 8:07 AM

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Steve, I have never rebuilt a regulator, just purchased a used one from a recyclers. The Ford and Mercury regulator for the 41-48 cars are the same. Try calling some of the recyclers that advertise in Hemmings or try French Lake Auto Parts in Annandale,MN at 320-274-8497.

Just looking at the drawing, I would guess that you would have to drill the rivets out from the front and replace them with nuts and bolts. Use permanent Loctite on the nuts.

Tom

len47merc

01-07-2014 @ 2:15 PM

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Thanks Tom - the plot both cleared and thickened after I posted the first question. On the mounting question, everyone I've spoken with and/or received feedback from either tack welded the cup to the regulator mounting flange or used small nuts and bolts as you've described with Loctite, so after your confirming reply am moving forward here: Except, I ran into another problem in that all suppliers of the regulator shaft assembly repair kit contacted thus far only stock and supply a 6-teeth design drive gear and the originals on this '47 are all 5-teeth. This was unknown to me as a consideration when I ordered from Job Lot and upon beginning the install was surprised the find the variance here as well as the mounting holes on the 6-teeth are not spaced consistently with the holes on the regulator mounting bracket. Treading water right now trying to figure this one out with other sources. On the entire window regulator assembly all that I have found available thus far are NOS, meaning the window handle shaft will still be pot metal which I intend to avoid if at all possible (don't want to have to hit this job again). Additionally, the regulator assembly is $125+ while the repair kit is ~$25, but my hours of 'fun' figuring this out will more than eat up the cost variance.

Steve

len47merc

01-13-2014 @ 9:47 AM

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UPDATE - very simple solution to this problem of reattaching the window regulator shaft cup without tack welding or using small bolts & nuts for the two holes not exposed on the rear. First, insert a rivet in the top hole (the only hole accessible on both sides) and punch it tightly closed, or alternatively use a small bolt, lock washer and nut to secure the cup at this one top point/hole. I preferred the punch rivet option for this hole. Purchase 2 each stainless steel #10 x 1/2" Pan Head Phillips Self-Tapping/Drilling screws and serrated or split ring lock washers from HD/Lowes/hardware, etc. - cost $0.55 total or so. Use the tip of one of the screws to initially cut/tap both 'bottom' holes of the cup and the regulator mounting bracket until the tip of the screw just makes contact with the 1/2 moon gear behind it. Then back it out, place the screws one at a time into a vise, then using a Dremel tool cut the screws to the length required so as to prevent interference with the 1/2 moon gear underneath while also achieving full pass-thru penetration of the cup and mounting flange (including lock washer) to maximize thread use. Use Loctite Threadlocker Red 271 on the screws' threads and lock them down snug. Should you ever need to access the handle shaft, springs or gear again in the future this option will allow for easier access than tack welding. Mine is rock-solid tight now using this method and works like new.

On the nut option discussed in the earlier reply, at least on this '47, the clearance between the mounting bracket and the 1/2 moon gear is too tight to allow for a small nut behind the mounting bracket unless you wish to grind the nut thinner.

I have yet to come across a regulator recycler or supplier that is aware that Mercury ever used 5-teeth window regulator main drive gears in these years. Whenever they sell one they simply pull one from their inventory and ship it without knowing whether it has a 5-teeth or 6-teeth drive gear (the perception is they would have to disassemble the regulator to determine whether it is 5-teeth or 6). I have yet to confirm without question the following as being the period standard so offer as data only - all of the window regulators on this early '47 Merc have copper-plated cups that house the handle shaft, spring and main gear and all have 5-teeth main gears (latter assumed as the number of turns to raise/lower the window are all identical to the now known and repaired 5-teeth right rear regulator). ALL repair kits I have found (and returned) come with 6-teeth gears (which will not work on this car's regulators as the diameter of the 6-teeth is too large and the tooth spacing is of course inconsistent), the cups have WHITISH BRONZE-tint plating and the 3 mounting holes do not fit the Mercury mounting bracket. All the recycled and/or NOS regulators I've found (excepting for 1 - read further) thus far are for Fords, have bronze cups and quite frankly have been so covered in surface rust from sitting on a shelf or in a pile so long as to drive me away from the clean-up and refurbishing effort back to the rebuilding of my existing, clean, non-rusted and still satin-black regulator(s). For interest and possible future emergency use, I specified a copper-plated cup regulator and purchased one from a recycler (for personal edification) that matched the pictures sent of my original and, upon receipt, the regulator's copper cup was removed and it was found to have a 5-teeth main gear as well. Btw - the bottom 3/4 circle flange of the 5-teeth main gear is identical to that of the 6-teeth. Late 30's and early 40's Fords used a 5-teeth gear but the bottom (or top, depending upon perspective) flange and tab design is different from that on this '47, that of the purchased regulator from the recycler as well as the repair kits for the '47.

I checked with 2 other recyclers and they stated they had never noticed nor segregated the copper versus bronze variance and had always shipped '...the next one in the bin...'. Both, after challenging my representation and then receiving photographic 'evidence' from me, stated they were surprised both by the information and to have subsequently found they both had samples of each in their inventories.

AND LASTLY, Dennis Carpenter and C&G Part # 21A-7923205-S - WINDOW CRANK REPAIR SHAFT - is a direct match and replacement for the original broken pot metal shaft and is made of reinforced nylon. This part is listed by both sources as only being for the Woody/Wagon, but the image was so close to what I removed from this car that I requested DC to mic the part's dimensions. The dimensions matched exactly, so I purchased the part (it came with 3 punch rivets btw) and it installed and fit perfectly. Both DC and C&G were very surprised to find this out - it appears the wagon and Mercs may have used similar 5-teeth window regulator gears (balance of the wagon's overall regulator design unknown) as perhaps 'upgrades' for easier and smoother window operation, but certainly the window regulator shaft is identical on this car for both. Again, this is data only and is not stated nor confirmed as the period standard.

In the end the cost of parts and materials for this repair of a broken window regulator shaft (my gear was fine) will run approximately $30. If a gear is bad and one has the 6-tooth design regulator the repair kit available from multiple sources will run about the same money. Otherwise, spend the money for a quality, complete NOS regulator with the original pot metal shafts and treat it accordingly.

Apologies for the lengthy update - given the personal (rookie) struggles encountered here it is thought that others going down this road, if not aware from earlier experience, may benefit from the information.

Steve

This message was edited by len47merc on 1-13-14 @ 1:19 PM

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