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Posted By Discussion Topic: Wide Five discussion -- page: 1 2 3     Stroker 10-13-2012 @ 3:45 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 1460 Joined: Oct 2009 It's a slow day here in Iowa, so I thought I pose a question. Why did Ford abandon the Wide-Five wheel concept? A few background concepts: 1. The wide five appeared on two continents about the same time. The Volkswagen and the 1936 Ford. There is a common denominator in the form of John Tjaarda, who's design influences are visible in both the VW Beetle, and the Lincoln Zephyr. 2. The wide five concept was also used by the Pontiac Division of GM in the mid-sixties as an option on their full-size performance line. 3. The wide five design has also seen use in dirt track racing for many years, and is still popular today in Sprint Car oval-track racing in the US. 4. While the bolt-circle spacing obviously is not the same on Ford/VW applications, and I'm unsure of the GM/Pontiac spacing, the concept was interesting. 5. Brake drums are big, heavy and by function must be strong. The wide-five "multi-tasked" these to also double-up as wheel centers, with the total assembly being lighter than a drum, disk wheel combination. So....my question to my fellow "Fordophiles" is why did Ford quit in 1940? I can understand switching, once disc brakes became the norm, but why was 1939 the last year? fenbach 10-13-2012 @ 7:59 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 227 Joined: Dec 2009 let me add to the list, 6. why did ford [or VW for that matter] adopt the wide-5 pattern in the first place? ps if someone researches this topic, i think it would make an interesting article for the V8 Times. ford38v8 10-13-2012 @ 9:37 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 2736 Joined: Oct 2009 The multi-tasking concept was a brilliant idea, reducing unsprung weight and cutting material cost in manufacturing. Unfortunately (as I heard it), the drum was subject to distortion from the wide bolt pattern under certain conditions, rendering the brakes less than reliable. Having a '38 myself, I've always been careful to torque the wheel nuts properly, not wishing to push my luck. Alan 37 Coupe 10-14-2012 @ 7:40 AM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 361 Joined: Oct 2009 I probably have this wrong but remember reading an article in V8 Times which naturally I cannot find about one of the reasons Ford went away from the wide five wheel in 1940. I believe it was the transfer of a slightly rougher ride,vibration or something. Mayby the engineers were able to read it with instruments,never noticeable to me. Why were the wide five wheels used for stock car racing? Were they more rugged ? Did Ford actually come up with the design or was it Kelsey Hayes? deuce_roadster 10-14-2012 @ 9:10 AM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 284 Joined: Oct 2009 It has always been my suspicion that most all changes were to make the part cheaper to manufacture or speed up assembly, then sold to the public as a "new improvement". Henry was cheap, and practical. supereal 10-14-2012 @ 10:37 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 6819 Joined: Oct 2009 One of the main reasons the "wide five" wheels were used for stock car racing is that most of the race cars of the days were '37-'39 Fords, which were built with those wheels. Likewise, many of the light trucks also used them. One of the most successful stock cars we had used a "wide five" rear axle from a '37 3/4 ton truck. The high ratio allowed us to run in third gear, instead of the second gear, which required a hook on the dash to keep it from jumping out of gear. Another benefit was the full floating hubs eliminated the constant threat of broken axles common in those years. I searched my stock of books, and didn't find a difinitive reason for the wide pattern, but because it coincided with the arrival of cable brakes, it was likely an attempt to prevent the drum warping that hindered the reliable mechanical braking that had increased pressure on the shoes. As the narrow pattern returned when Ford finally adopted the Lockheed hydraulic brakes, that seems to be a plausable reason. As a sidelight, I did learn that old Henry, who fought "juice" brakes until competitors already had switched, had his new '39 converted to mechanical brakes! fenbach 10-14-2012 @ 7:58 PM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 227 Joined: Dec 2009 alan, you are "careful to torque the wheel nuts properly." proper torque being how many foot-lbs? thanks bob Stroker 10-15-2012 @ 3:17 PM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 1460 Joined: Oct 2009 Thanks to all who have chimed-in on this discussion. I've convinced myself that the wide-five was in the making, probably by Kelsey-Hayes before being adopted by Ford. The Tjaarda designed Briggs prototype "world car" concept which greatly influenced Zephyrs, VW's, 37 Fords, etc. after serious tweaking by E.T. and Edsel. While it's hard to tell from photos, this car was equipped with wide-fives in 1934. Stout (yes, the same Stout that pioneered the Ford Tri-Motor airplane), also came up with another rear-engined "car of tomorrow" in 1935 that used "wide-fives". I also found the bolt circle dimensions of the two most popular wide fives: Ford 1936-1939 was 10-1/4 inches vs the VW 1935-1967 dimension of 7-3/4 inches. Porsche also used the VW bolt pattern up to the mid-sixties. I was in error on the Sixties Pontiac though, as it was a "wide-EIGHT", also produced by Kelsey Hayes, only available as an option on the full-sized Pancho's. So....I believe the concept was designed to relieve the "wheel" of any job other than mounting the tire. The wide bolt-pattern reduced the strain on the lug bolts, and made the hub/brake drum assembly do all the work of absorbing lateral loads. The "dirt-ballers" still love the design, as they are trying to save weight while severely side-loading their rear tires. Also, they are restricted by "the rules" to using steel wheels, so the less steel you have, the lighter the total assembly is. I'm still not convinced why Ford would abandon a concept that Porsche and Pontiac embraced into the mid sixties. This message was edited by Stroker on 10-15-12 @ 3:24 PM 37 Coupe 10-16-2012 @ 5:21 AM reply profile send p.m. Member Posts: 361 Joined: Oct 2009 Why and when did Kelsey Hayes make the wide five 15" wheel that is 6" wide instead of 4"? The ones I have seen belonged to couple friends who raced stock cars and are not modified one still has the Kelsey Hayes label still on it. Were they Lincoln or Mercury rims? Thanks supereal 10-16-2012 @ 7:04 AM reply profile send p.m. Senior Posts: 6819 Joined: Oct 2009 The wide rims we used came from light trucks.

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