| wilsonsk | -- 06-06-2022 @ 11:07 AM |
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I bought a 1941 Tudor DeLuxe from my daughter. I had assumed it was stock but as I am going through and picking away at things, I realize I have a mix of things, here is what I think I know: Car - 1941 Tudor Sedan Heads- 8BA Side mount distributor Water pumps - 59? with flat motor mounts Block - 8BA (bolt on bell housing) Is that what it looks like I have? I have odd heating-up issues, car takes a long time to get warm, the drivers side will go up to 220 then drop done to 190, I have had the passenger side run at 190 for 20 minutes and then heat up to 220 briefly, is this trapped air? I have only run it a couple of times because I want to sort out this heating issue. It has an aftermarket aluminum radiator and a 7 lb cap, I added a burp tank which seems to be functioning but still seems like I am burping air into it, I bought head gaskets because I'm sure it could use them and that may be my problem, I bought them from Dennis Carpenter, I ordered based on my assumption that the motor was original to the car (wrong), the gaskets I have cannot be used on this motor, correct? My previous experience with flathead fords was our 51 3/4 ton we had on the farm until I was 8 or so, I knew it had a flathead 8 and it had a 3 speed, and I drove it on the farm.
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| carcrazy | -- 06-06-2022 @ 12:50 PM |
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Judging by the distributor location, 8BA heads and removable bellhousing; you have a third generation Ford Flathead V-8 engine (1949 or newer pass. car or 1948 or newer truck). Those new head gaskets you have will not work on your engine. Do you currently have thermostats in the engine? If you have mechanical temperature gauges or a laser thermometer, it is normal for the coolant temperatures in the cylinder heads to instantaneously go to relatively high temperatures of 200 degrees F or more until the thermostats open up.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-06-2022 @ 1:38 PM |
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"Judging by the distributor location, 8BA heads and removable bellhousing; you have a third generation Ford Flathead V-8 engine (1949 or newer pass. car or 1948 or newer truck). Those new head gaskets you have will not work on your engine." Thanks, that's what I was starting to think but I'm taking in a lot of new info on old stuff right now, just want to confirm "Do you currently have thermostats in the engine?" I don't have thermostats in there now, I checked them and they looked as old as the engine, I pulled them out and am currently running without them. I researched the web and found everyone pretty split on running without thermostats being OK or not OK, I pulled them to be sure one wasn't hanging up. I'll test them tonight. It does kind of behave like thermostats opening and closing, what are the odds of thermostats in the hoses too?? I can check. "If you have mechanical temperature gauges or a laser thermometer, it is normal for the coolant temperatures in the cylinder heads to instantaneously go to relatively high temperatures of 200 degrees F or more until the thermostats open up." I put in aftermarket gauges. 1 in each head. I have an IR temp gun, what should I be seeing for temps at different points on teh heads and motor normally? I can check that. It seems to push water into the burp tank and pull it back in to the system when it cools, I have shut it off when it hit 220, it was pushing water and some bubbles with the engine off (maybe 1 bubble the size of a pea per second) but not boiling), started it back up (started just fine) and the temp dropped to 190 again, the passenger side had been at 190 the whole time, then in the few blocks home it headed up to 220 then back down. It sat for 10 years with the coolant drained, could there be rust and cr*p floating around in there? I can flush it. This message was edited by wilsonsk on 6-6-22 @ 1:55 PM
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| carcrazy | -- 06-06-2022 @ 1:56 PM |
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Yes, I highly recommend back flushing the cooling system. You can use a kit for that purpose sold by Prestone. This kit will allow you to connect your garden hose to one of your heater hoses. Simply follow the instructions included with the kit. If your vehicle still runs hot after you have back flushed your cooling system, you might want to take the radiator to a shop to have it professionally cleaned. Once you get the radiator back from the shop, it would be good to install all new radiator and heater hoses along with new thermostats. I prefer to use the 160 degree F units as I have never had a problem with Flatheads running too cold!
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-06-2022 @ 2:52 PM |
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I'll pick up stuff to start flushing tomorrow. Should I be soaking with vinegar or CLR or anything like that?
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| carcrazy | -- 06-06-2022 @ 5:02 PM |
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I don't know about using vinegar in the cooling system. It is a mild acid so I would be careful about using it in a cooling system with an aluminum radiator. If you do use it, be sure to neutralize it and totally flush it out after just a short period of time, about 15 minutes.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-06-2022 @ 5:20 PM |
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I was thinking just fill the block and heads with the vinegar, then flush, keep the radiator out of it. There is a shop in town I think, I may just run the radiator down there for a cleaning while I’m messing with the block,
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-07-2022 @ 6:43 AM |
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I drained the radiator and the coolant looked nice and clean, then I pulled the lower hoses And there was quite a bit of rust laying in those. After it drained down I looked in the top tank of the radiator and there is a layer of rusty sludge with what looks like bits of paper and grass. I believe I’m dealing with a mouse nest.
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| carcrazy | -- 06-07-2022 @ 12:41 PM |
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Having rodents in the car is definitely bad news! I once bought a 17 year old car that had been stored in a barn. Squirrels had gotten into the interior and under-hood area. Aside from using the car as their restroom, they chewed up the insulation on many of the wires in the harnesses and removed the padding out of the vinyl covered seats. As a bonus they left many acorn sh*lls under the instrument panel. If your car has been exposed to mice, you might want to check your wires to see if the insulation has been compromised. Also check to see if they have gotten into the air cleaner or the exhaust system. Hopefully they have not gotten into the engine to make a nest under the intake manifold!
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-07-2022 @ 3:53 PM |
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On one hand I’m glad I found something, I hate it when you have problems and start picking away at things and never know what was wrong. I have looked at most of the wiring, most of it is original, not in great shape but I don’t see any rodent damage there. I haven’t pulled the seats out and looked at the bottoms but they look ok from the top. I’m fairly green on flatheads, but can mice get under the intake?
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-07-2022 @ 6:19 PM |
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Worked on the radiator, I got my setup for flushing both the radiator and the block, started with the radiator tonight, up flushed it and added some blasts of air through a 1/4” copper tube through the cap hole to shake stuff up, worked pretty good, goopy stuff came out right away, lots of 1/4” flake of rust left, hooked up to the right upper hose with water and plugged both bottoms, cross flushed the top tank, that got rid of most of the flakes, looks nice in there, radiator gravity drains through one bottom hose in about 2 seconds. I’ll work on the block tomorrow, I figure I’ll do one side at a time cold , twice the flow. Can you back flush it running against the water pumps? Do I need to flush it running? This message was edited by wilsonsk on 6-7-22 @ 6:32 PM
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| carcrazy | -- 06-07-2022 @ 8:52 PM |
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Mice can get into the engine by crawling through the crankcase road draught vent tube. According to the instructions on the "Flush 'n Fill Kit": after connecting the TEE into a relatively straight section of the heater inlet hose (this hose comes off of the top of the cylinder head - make sure the heater water control valve is fully opened), connect the garden hose to the TEE, snap the Splash Tube into the radiator neck and open the radiator drain, turn on the water to the garden hose, check to see that liquid is emerging from the deflector tube before proceeding. Start the engine and let it run at idle speed during flushing. Set heater control on "high". Back-flush cooling system until water from Splash Tube runs clear - approximately 5 minutes. Shut off engine, then turn off the water. Remove Splash Tube, garden hose and coupler. After radiator has drained, close radiator drain. If engine has a coolant recovery system, flush out coolant reservoir and fill to proper level with 50% solution of antifreeze/coolant. Don't put too much coolant in the overflow tank as you want there to be enough room for the coolant that is displaced from the radiator as the engine heats up. Fill the radiator with 50% solution of antifreeze/coolant. My rule of thumb is to only fill the radiator so the coolant level is about 1/2" above the top of the core. Putting more than this in will result in coolant being forced out as the engine reaches operating temperature.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-08-2022 @ 6:22 AM |
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I have flushed the radiator with clean water and got pretty much all of the cr*p out of that, I've been back-flushing the block sides one at a time back and forth with clean water, keep getting small flakes of rust, maybe a 1/4 cup total from each side. I picked up the Prestone flush kit, I'll fill it with water, drive it and get it warmed up and drain it, then flush with the Prestone kit, my one question with that, I only have a heater hose on the passenger side, do I need to pull my temp sender out on that side and do that side too?
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| carcrazy | -- 06-08-2022 @ 10:17 AM |
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Just do the one heater hose, the water will circulate throughout the entire cooling system. Be sure the engine is cold before you hook up the garden hose to flush the system. If you introduce cold water into a hot engine you risk cracking the block.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-08-2022 @ 2:14 PM |
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After flushing there was more rust chips in the top of the radiator partly blocking most tubes I could see. I called the radiator shop, he's not a fan of aluminum radiators, he said he'd use air and water to blow it out, told me how to do it myself if I wanted. He said he could cut it apart if it really needed it but a new radiator is $194 and he'd charge me more than that. He was not real optimistic about the whole thing, he said if I get it clean, the cr*p from the motor will just keep coming (he's got a point). I asked him about screens for teh top hoses, he had never heard of anything like that. I followed his instructions, laid it on the front side, hose fittings point up, with the cap on , connected water to one bottom fitting, made a seal for my air blower and when it was full I'd hit it with a shot of air, it would shoot up a good 4 or 5 feet out of the top hose fittings, I did that about twenty times, ends of the tubes I can see through the cap hole all look nice and clean. I googled "radiator screen" and found all kinds of them commercially available, ranging from $60-$100 each, stumbled on a youtube video of a guy that made a sock out of fiberglass window screen for the same reason, worked great for him, I made two of them for each top hose, stuff them into the top hose fittings on the radiator, fold them over the fitting and clamp it with the hose. I drove 3 or 4 miles to the post office and back, not really enough to get it hot the way it used to run but the needles never moved on the gauges and they start around 170. I'm just running water for now, I want to put some miles on it and see how it goes, check my water socks and see how much rust I'm collecting.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-08-2022 @ 7:36 PM |
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Here’s what I caught in my short drive, I’m really glad I found that video.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-08-2022 @ 7:43 PM |
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I made a couple of 6” socks, they go in the radiator and turn towards the cap, the could be a couple inches longer. we used to use something similar in the cheese making business to filter solids out of whey, also something similar used in dairy barn pipelines before the milk goes in the bulk tank. I’m just running water now, I’ll check these after every drive for a while.
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| carcrazy | -- 06-08-2022 @ 8:53 PM |
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Looks like you are definitely making progress. I agree with your radiator man, the original type of radiator is probably the best choice once you have it thoroughly cleaned and serviced.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-09-2022 @ 3:52 AM |
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He also commented that a lot of aluminum 2” radiators are 2 row or even 1 row, mine is two rows. A copper 2” radiator is most likely four row, will be much more effective cooling, and you can clean it and easily repair it. Does anyone sell copper radiators for a 41? I am going to look for a decent used one too.
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| 51504bat | -- 06-09-2022 @ 5:20 AM |
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Does anyone sell copper radiators for a 41? Brassworks. Won't be cheap but it will fit and be excellent quality. Be prepared to wait. They are backed up with orders, partly due to Walker Radiator shutting down. https://thebrassworks.net/ ______________ No signature
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-09-2022 @ 6:02 AM |
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I checked The Brassworks, I can buy a lot of aluminum radiators for that kind of money, I'd consider it if I decide to go complete restoration. For now I just want a decent old driver that is reasonably reliable. We'll see how my screen socks do over time.
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| trjford8 | -- 06-09-2022 @ 6:45 AM |
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Try U.S.Radiator in Los Angeles, Ca. They have both copper/brass and aluminum radiators. www.usradiator.com Ph# 323-826-0965 This message was edited by trjford8 on 6-9-22 @ 6:49 AM
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-09-2022 @ 7:02 AM |
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A little better money there, ~$900.
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| carcrazy | -- 06-09-2022 @ 8:53 AM |
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How long do you intend to keep this car? If you intend to keep it "forever" getting the best radiator available makes the best sense.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-09-2022 @ 11:25 AM |
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"How long do you intend to keep this car? If you intend to keep it "forever" getting the best radiator available makes the best sense." Not sure yet, it's for sale now, lots of tire kickers, I'm not giving it away either, and as i pick away at things the price will go up. It won't bother me a bit if I keep it, would be ok selling it for the right money as well. I'm enjoying the process of getting it roadworthy right now. I agree though, if it starts looking like a permanent fixture I don't have trouble spending the money on a correct radiator, the aluminum one doesn't look right in there either.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-09-2022 @ 11:28 AM |
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Went for a drive after lunch, about 7 miles, 2 miles one way at 50 mph, stopped at Ace hardware for 10 minutes, left side temp wasnt off the peg yet, right side was around 170. Started right up, drove back home, 5-6 blocks of stop sign to stop sign, when I got home left side was 180, right side was 195, started right back up, took it out for about 12 blocks of back streets, both sides settled in at 190, no thermostats, plain water. Shut it off at home, temps are slowly going down, feels pretty good.
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| carcrazy | -- 06-09-2022 @ 12:40 PM |
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If you want to get a correct brass radiator for the car at "reasonable" cost, advertising for one in the Parts Wanted section of our club's website might provide the best results. Once you obtain this radiator, you can have it cleaned and repaired as required for less than the cost of a new unit from the vendors previously listed.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-09-2022 @ 12:50 PM |
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"If you want to get a correct brass radiator for the car at "reasonable" cost, advertising for one in the Parts Wanted section of our club's website might provide the best results. Once you obtain this radiator, you can have it cleaned and repaired as required for less than the cost of a new unit from the vendors previously listed." I agree, the radiator man made it very clear that he could help me a lot more with that scenario. Also keeps more original parts on the road. I'll run what I have for the time being, lots of other things to pick away at before I get there but I'll keep my eyes open. On another note I managed to make some headway adjusting the brakes, I did the fronts, turned out good, pretty much eliminated the pulling to the right. I need to do the backs as well. I need to get it up on stands and grease it, check fluids, etc. I'll do them then.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-09-2022 @ 7:31 PM |
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I pulled the screens I put in the upper hose ports, at least 1/4 cup of rust chunks, one of them was full, I made bigger ones, I’m sure glad it’s not going in the radiator. This thing runs great, no smoke, I don’t want to tear it apart yet but I suspect that’s in the future. I’ll keep running short trips and emptying the socks for now.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-10-2022 @ 8:52 AM |
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I got rigged up to do a back flush through the upper radiator hose with water and the ability to blast some air with it, I'll drive it and get it a little warmed up and then pull the bottom hose and do one side at a time. Hopefully the air will help churn up some more of that stuff and get it out.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-11-2022 @ 11:37 AM |
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I did some back flushing with water+air, backwards through the block and up through the radiator. I got a lot of cr*p out of the block, the radiator had a little in it, one of the socks opened up at a seam and let some back in. After 3 flushes per side I buttoned it all up, straight water, no thermostats. I drove around town a bit then did 15 miles at 55-60 mph. It hung out around 190 and as I came into town and slowed down it crept up to right around 220 and hung there, I went home and it was bubbling a little in to the overflow bottle. After it cools I’ll check my socks, I made new ones twice as long and closed up the ends better. Does this seem normal or do i still have gremlins? I attached a couple pictures of my flushing rig for both the block and the radiator
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-11-2022 @ 1:02 PM |
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I pulled the socks out, another 1/4 cup in those, one side had opened up again, a solid layer of goo and chunks on top of the core tubes in the upper tank, air/water flushed that again and got it clean again. I made socks without seams this time, kind of crude but I’ll try it again, seems like and endless supply of crud in there, has to be a couple of cups so far. This message was edited by wilsonsk on 6-11-22 @ 1:22 PM
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| MG | -- 06-11-2022 @ 1:30 PM |
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Seems to me that it should be flushed just the opposite of the way you did it...That is, flush through the radiator first and then out the block. This, to keep the "crud" from the block out of the radiator.
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-11-2022 @ 2:06 PM |
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The pictures may not show it but I did the block and radiator separately, I did the two sides of the block, in the upper hose, out the water pump inlet, so reverse flow, radiator is not connected. I do the radiator from the bottom hose up and out the two upper hoses, the other lower hose plugged, never the radiator and block at the same time.
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| TomO | -- 06-12-2022 @ 9:53 AM |
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It sounds like you may have inadequate radiator capacity. When the air is being forced through the radiator by driving at a steady speed, it can cool the coolant, but when you get in traffic it will not coll the coolant. Your rust scale problem makes it hard to say if it is a capacity problem, so you should resolve that first. Other people have used vinegar, CLR, Evaporust and other types of rust removal products to clean their block with success. Vinegar is the least expensive. Fill the block with vinegar, start and run the engine to warm up the vinegar and then let it set for a couple of days. Remove the water pumps and flush the heads and block. The vinegar should soften and loosen the rust scale and the large opening of the water inlet should allow most of it to drain out. You can also remove the water pumps and use a frayed cable in a drill to loosen some of the scale at the bottom of the block. Then flush it and do it over until the flushed water is clear of debris. Tom
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| wilsonsk | -- 06-12-2022 @ 12:17 PM |
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I believe I have the capacity to cool it, the top of the radiator was full of scale when I got home, it ran for 15 miles at less than 190, after it crept up I went back to the highway and got up to 55 again to see if it would cool down with more airflow, it stayed where it was. I got that cleaned up again and have socks in to catch it for the time being, I’ll try the vinegar in the block and see how that goes.
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