| DEUCEMAN | -- 04-17-2010 @ 6:54 AM |
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Please can anyone tell me the correct lube to use in a '39 trans with lincoln 25 tooth gears and in the rear, a '39 banjo with 4:11 gears. Some say 140 wt, GL4, others say the old Ford 600 wt and some say synthetic and others say no. In the trans if you use synoil the trans will leak and jump out of gear as the lube is too thin. Please may I have some suggestions. Everything is rebuilt, lass than 1000 miles and I'm currently using Ford 600 wt lube as that's what the rebuilder recommended, saying "that's what Ford recommended", just change it frequently. Thanks Guys....
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| supereal | -- 04-17-2010 @ 7:51 AM |
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Duece: Don't use 600W "oil" in anything. It is a thin asphaltic compound originally designed for use in the Model A's, which had transmissions that wouldn't hold conventional oil. It is obsolete, and will damage your gear boxes. We use 140W in our cars and trucks gearboxes. It tends not to leak if the level is kept below the filler hole. You should just be able to find the oil by crooking a finder into the filler. If you can't find 140, the usual 80-90 is fine. These modern lubes contain additives for "high pressure" use, ideal for most gearboxes. As for "what Ford recommended", most, if not all, lubes in the manuals have long since become obsolete. Modern oils are light years ahead of those. The exception is synthetic oil, which while a fine lube, does get dirty as quickly in old engines, and requires as frequent changes as conventional oil. It also has the added disadvantage of being hard to contain with old style lip and rope seals. You can do a whole lot of oil changes for the price of synthetics, as well.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-17-2010 @ 8:15 AM |
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you can try farm TRACTOR DEALERS for heavier oils, as well as large tractor trailer dealers as well, they may have a better selection, also I put 140 MOBIL 1 in my 37 FORD Rear End 5 years ago , have no problems, I rebuilt the rear, with new bearing and gears and a 354 high speed rear ratio, The new 600 w rear and trans the parts vendors is not the same oil it was 60 years ago, I agree with superreal on the old oil,but have not seen that for sale in years, not unless it is old stock, I have using 600W in my 37 trans since 1978.also shifts good, my 3 cents worth 37 RAGTOPMAN just have to heat it up a little to install, LIKE they say ask 10 people a question, get 10 different answers,!!
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| supereal | -- 04-17-2010 @ 3:30 PM |
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Be glad you don't have brass synchronizers in your transmission. 600W is abrasive and eats soft metals.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-18-2010 @ 12:47 PM |
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FORD put 600 w in the back of The Model T FORD,in the rear end they have big soft babbit washers for end play in the ring gear, and it was installed in MILLIONS of the THEM ???? and FORD used this grease up to 1948. I have never seen any destroyed rear ends, like super is saying, and HUNDERDS OF ANTIQUE PARTS VENDORS SELL IT,,!!! can't tell how many rears I dissembled and saw good gears, I do now use MOBIL 1 GEAR OIL NOW,in my high speed rear,and have had no problems,MOBIL 1 OIL makes it run cooler, its a Proven Fact, LESS FRICTION, this is only my 3 cents worth, 37RAGTOPMAN
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| supereal | -- 04-19-2010 @ 10:05 AM |
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I was referring to the brass transmission parts, and those in Columbia axles. I worked for many years at a Ford dealership in the 40's and 50's, and 600W oil was not used in any vehicles. I know that those vendors selling Model A & T parts do sell 600W, as well as non-detergent motor oil. Just because it is available doesn't make it correct. Most "original" lubes, such as "soda soap" grease, are long gone. The high pressure additives in modern gear lube, like detergents in oil, are a huge benefit in old vehicles.
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| 51f1 | -- 04-19-2010 @ 1:15 PM |
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Why not use 70W-140 synthetic in the rear end and transmissions? Richard
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| 39 Ken | -- 04-19-2010 @ 3:16 PM |
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The gears in these old Ford applications are designed with wider tolerances than newer designs used in today's cars. Therefore, the older type of gear oil such as 90 wt. or 140 wt. is the most appropriate. Synthetic is too thin in it's composition to protect our gears because of the wider tolerances.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-19-2010 @ 4:23 PM |
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51F1 I use in my rear in my 37 but use 250 in the trans, I used to sell OILZUM oils and they made a 250 , I think the syn oil in the trans is ok, but most likley to thin, just make sure you use the heaviest oil you can find and like suer said put in a good additive, gears require a hypoid oil I THINK if you bought some of the 600 replacment oil and added a GOOD GEAR ADDITIVE you would be covered. I used to have a old 60'S BENZ DIESEL and they reguired you to use AUTOMATIC ATF OIL in the STANDARD TRANSMISSION,but they had good seals to keep the oil in, some people use STP in the trans, this is a bad idea not unless you add a hypoid additive to help the lube I think STP would break down with long time use, my 3 cents worth,37RAGTOPMAN
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| supereal | -- 04-20-2010 @ 9:01 AM |
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As Ken points out, synthetics can be a problem when used in parts with wide tolerances. The quality that reduces surface tension to spread lubrication in close tolerances, can cause lack of lubrication in some places in our old cars. When I installed the overdrive in my '47, the driveshaft was made with a bronze center bearing. I greased it well with a synthetic, only to have the bearing howl and overheat during the first 50 miles. After replacing the lube with common JT-6, the problem disappeared for good. We also tried synthetic grease in the rear hubs, only to find gray grease and damaged axle housing surfaces when we checked them after a couple of hundred miles. Beware of a "one size fits all" lube for old cars and trucks.
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| jerry.grayson | -- 04-20-2010 @ 9:49 AM |
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All the early v/8 owners manuals and the service bulletins say use SAE 90 or 110 winter and SAE 160 in summer. They DO NOT say use 600WT. 600wt was not used by dealers and is not recommended by any Ford publication for EFV/8's.
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| 37 Coupe | -- 04-20-2010 @ 10:13 AM |
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Supereal,good point on using synthetic grease for rear hubs.Dick Flynn in V8Times pushed this idea years ago and the guys that pulled hubs back off after very few miles found gray metal grease and scoured hubs,some of this was blamed on inferior bearings and replacement bearing sleeves. I think synthetic is to fine for the rollers to pickup,not a close tolerance that synthetic needs. I always try to use Genuine Ford rollers either NOS or good used and good old fashion stringy wheel bearing grease,think the stuff I got was again made by Sta Lube or the CRC name.
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| DEUCEMAN | -- 04-21-2010 @ 6:44 AM |
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THANK EVERYONE FOR THEIR ADVICE. I'M GONA USE STA-LUBE 140 IN THE TRANS, NON SYNTHETIC, IT'S TOO RISKY IN MY MIND. THE REAR IS SOMETHING ELSE, PERHAPS SYNTHETIC THERE 90/140, MOBIL ONE? ANY SUGGESTIONS ON A BRAND....
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| jerry.grayson | -- 04-21-2010 @ 7:00 AM |
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Deuceman do your self a favor and use the same lube in the rear axle that you are using in the transmission. I do not personally have any experience with synthetic lube in the gearbox or rear axle, but many people who I have high regard for(some posting here) advise against it.I do know that millions of Fords have used 90-140 with good results. "If it ain't broke don't fix it". The brand does not matter.
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| supereal | -- 04-21-2010 @ 10:21 AM |
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The only grease to use in packing rear hub bearings is the "heavy duty drum brake" bearing grease. It is made by Sta-Lube and Pennzoil. It contains fibers that cause the grease to be picked up and circulated in the Hyatt roller bearings. Any other type will accelerate damage to the axle housings. We often read of "experts" who are advising use of synthetics, etc. Usually they are flacking a brand such as AmSoil, etc.
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| DEUCEMAN | -- 04-23-2010 @ 2:44 PM |
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Guys once again you advice has helped me alot. I have drained the Trans and filled it with StaLube 140wt GL 4. I also drained the rear and refilled it with the same lube StaLube 140wt GL4. Now a question, the Trans was filled with Red Line full synthetic 90 wt and I drained about an equal amount of lube as I put in. The Rear was quite a different story, it had Red Line 70/90wt full synthetic according to the rebuilder and when I drained it only aprox a cup and a half of lube came out and the smell was very strong and kinds of awful. I have done a number of rears in my time and never smelled anything like this stuff. I checked the rear over very carefully prior to draining it and there were absoloutly no leaks anywhere, rear, torque tube, etc, all dry, it took about a little more thean a quart, perhaps 3 pints untill it ran back out of thr fill hole and when I checked with my finger it was right below the fill hole, same with the trans. Does the rear "use" oil? and why the smell, do all synthetics smell so strongly awful. So now I have 140Wt non-synthetic in both the trans and the rear. Please let me know what your experiance is with Syn lubes..Thanks Guys....
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-24-2010 @ 7:58 AM |
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if you drained the oils in a plastic container,, do the trans seperate and the rear, run a magnet around in the oils and see if it picks anything up,this will tell a story,good or bad, also a paint strainer is also good to use I would have left the SYN oil in each or changed it to SYN, If you notice the SYN OIL USUALLY does not get dirty, to me this means NO WEAR is going on, dirty oil means the oil breaks down and or the parts are wearing in the unit, my 3 cents worth 37RAGTOPMAN This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 4-24-10 @ 8:04 AM
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| DEUCEMAN | -- 04-24-2010 @ 8:48 AM |
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37 RAGTOPMAN, AS ALWAYS, THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY. I'M SO CONFUSED, I SPOKE TO BOTH THE GUYS AT "BOB DRAKE" AND "FLATHEAD JACK" AND IN BOTH CASES, AFTER I EXPLAINED IN DETAIL THE '39 TRANS WITH LINCOLN GEARS AND THE '39 REAR WITH 4:11 GEARS, THE BOB DRAKE GUY SAID USE EITHER THE MODERN 600WT LUBE AS THE NEW STUFF IS AS GOOD AS ANY OR USE 140WT GL4 LUBE, NON SYN. JACK SAID STA LUBE 140WT NON SYN. AND WHY NON SYN, BECAUSE THE OLD TOLERANCES WERE LOOSE AND SYN IS TOO THIN AND IF YOUR SEALS ARE NOT REAL GOOD YOU'LL GET SIEPAGE AND EVEN LUBE LEAKING OUT OF THE BANJO'S REAR SIDE BOLTS AND THE TRANS' SEALS. THEY BOTH SAID THSY HAVE HEARD, ALTHOUGH NOT EXPERIANCED, SOME OLDER TRANS' JUMPING OUT OF SECOND WHEN USING SYN LUBE BUT THAT COULD HAVE BEEN A CASE OF WOREN PARTS AND THE SYN LUBE.. SO I FIGURED I'D DO THE SYN LUBE 140 WT, I DO NOT DRIVE THE CAR THAT MUCH 2K PER YEAR AND AND I WILL CHANGE FLUIDS IN A REGULAR BASIS..
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| supereal | -- 04-24-2010 @ 11:07 AM |
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I'm not sure why anyone would recommend 600W oil, but order takers seem to seldom know much beyond stock numbers, if that. Synthetic oil lubricates just fine in close tolerance applications, but tends to leak past the old style leather and rope seals. If the rear end is overfilled, it is likely that the oil will leak into the hubs, and eventually on to the backing plates and brakes. The common pattern is for oil to leak from the rear of the transmission and down the torque tube into the rear end. That is why the rear end is usually full beyond the filler, and the transmission needs to be refilled frequently. Unlike engine oil, transmission and rear end oils should come out nearly clear. If not, there is a problem. Jumping out of gear is almost always due to worn bearings.
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-24-2010 @ 11:17 AM |
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hi DEUCEMAN the 600 w that they sell today is actually 250w and not that harsh on the parts,atleast I think so. yeah the old stuff probably was not that good, just like the oil motor oils from back in the 1920-1960's I heard of some people using a mix of STP OIL TREATMENT and gear oil to make things thicker, but STP is NOT a hypoid gear lube, and you need this high pressure lube between the gears, maybe supereal could be correct in the trans,by not using the 600w but can see no problem in the rear using it, but each to his own, it does say in one of my 1938 servie bulletin FORD books to use 90 SAE Gear grease, in the rear end, but I think the 90 sae oil was heavier back then, compared to the modern lube, how does you trans work, shift ok, I heard that if you use thin oil in the trans it might be hard shift it, causes the gears to have no drag on them. heavier lube slows them up so they mesh better this is true in the non syncro trans, if the rebuilder said to use 600W in it I see no problem with it as long as he stands behind his work, as you drive the car and it gets warmed up , the gear lube flows easier,but as long as it shifts and works like you want it to. if the trans jumps out of gear it is not the lube but worn parts, I use MOBIL 1 90-140 in the rear end,and had no signs of leakage, just do not overfill,this is after, I replaced the gears and all bearng when installing 354-1 gear set. 140 GL in the rear is ok, just inspect it,for getting dirty,and when draining it use a magnet to see if any metal particles are in it, what ever works,for you, WHAT YOU ARE DOING SOUND FINE TO ME, just do not use the SYN Grease for wheel bearing,I had a few issue with modern cars VW'S and had premature bearing failure,and I used AMSOIL GREASE, I used the heavier oil in my trans,and had no problems, hope this helps 37RAGTOPMAN
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| DEUCEMAN | -- 04-24-2010 @ 1:11 PM |
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SUPEREAL, THANKS FOR YOU REPLY. OVERFILL? I FILLED BOTH THE TRANS AND THE REAR UNTILL LUBE CAME BACK OUT OF THR FILLER HOLE, THAN I CHECKED WITH MY FINGER AND THE LUBE WAS JUST ABOUT LEVEL TO THE FILLER HOLE, ASSUME THAT'S THE CORRECT PROCEEDURE. THE TRANS TOOK ALMOST 2 QUARTS AND THE REAR ABOUT 3 PINTS, DOES THAT SOUND ABOUT RIGHT? DOES ANYBODY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE AWFUL SMELL THE REAR SYN-OIL HAD AND HOW SO MUCH OF THE REAR LUBE DISAPEARED, ONLY A CUP AND A HALF CAME OUT WHEN I DRAINED THE OLD LUBE, THE REAR WAS REBUILT AND ONLY HAD ABOUT 1000 MILES....
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| supereal | -- 04-26-2010 @ 7:30 AM |
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Usually, leakage from the transmission will overflow down the torque tube to the rear end, so you may find it overfull when checked. The advice to fill only until you can reach the oil with a crooked finger is to minimize leakage. You will nearly always find the transmission level low, anyway. As to the smell, some gear lubes reek like dead fish, particularly very old ones. Years ago, I split the halves of a Ford tractor near my barn to install a new clutch, and the oil stunk so bad that I believe I can still smell it years after! Any good brand of gear oil should only smell like motor oil. We don't use synthetic oil in any old vehicle, but all of our new cars and trucks specify it now. It is hard to keep synthetic anything in place because it tends to slip by any old type seals.
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| cresty | -- 05-03-2010 @ 4:30 PM |
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CROOKING A FINDER INTO THE FILLER HUMMM?!??!
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| 49inthefastlane | -- 05-13-2010 @ 7:47 PM |
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Call your local Amsoil dealer or go to their website. Older transmissions have brass components and modern lubricants will "etch" the copper content out of the brass. Amsoil makes a 90wt that leaves the copper alone.
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| Hardie | -- 06-04-2010 @ 6:43 PM |
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Just a couple of cents worth: 600W is called "cylinder oil" and was originally designed to lubricate steam cylinders on locomotives and other steam powered machinery. It's impregnated with beef tallow which gives it significant "string" and coating properties as you've probably seen if you play with it. I contacted Mobil years ago about the product and once I convinced the engineer I spoke to that Mobil actually made the product he was able to confirm that it is a proper lubricant for the open tolerances found in our old vehicles. I use it with excellent results in my "T's" and my '35 and "48 V8's. [It] shouldn't be used in overdrives, worm-drives or in the "T's" Ruxtel axles.That may be more space than is allowed for a couple of cents.
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| f1ford48 | -- 08-22-2010 @ 10:20 PM |
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for what its worth. my service data handbook for 1941-published by Ford Motor Company sez 80-90 gear oil in winter and 140 in summer. I also heard an old Mechanic once say they put that stink in gear oil so you can tell by the leaks under your car where the ''trouble'' is [by taking a whiff of the oil spot that is]
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| parrish | -- 04-02-2011 @ 9:31 AM |
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Is this the good stuff for 39 trans and rear?
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| supereal | -- 04-02-2011 @ 10:42 AM |
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That would be fine. Sta-Lube makes excellent grease and oil. Most, if not all, gear lube today containes "high pressure" additives. There is nothing wrong with synthetic lubes, but old vehicles have wide clearances that require heavier consistancy. We tried synthetic grease in rear hubs, and it accelerated the erosion of the axle housing. Not everything new is automatically better.
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| sunflower | -- 04-03-2011 @ 6:50 AM |
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Hi, I been useing straight 140 wt. mineral oil is that ok to use in my 35Ford.Thanks again .s
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| hickok | -- 04-18-2020 @ 7:22 AM |
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Hello All, Old Thread Here I know... But I need to refill my fan assembly on my 47 Mercury with Hypoid gear oil. My local auto parts shrugs their shoulders... I do not want to assume 140 non synthetic.... What say you all??? Thanks, ocHcikok
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| therunwaybehind | -- 04-18-2020 @ 11:36 AM |
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Transmissions "jump out of gear" because the shifter forks are worn and the grooves where the shifter forks run just before the gear ends are mutually worn. Has nothing to do with the gear oil.
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