| Goofyfixer | -- 03-16-2021 @ 7:01 AM |
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I have recently purchased a '40 deluxe coupe that is in very good condition. It has never been modified (with a few minor exceptions) and is just a good old driver. When I purchased it, it wasn't running due to weak spark. I bought a coil which solved the problem and now it starts quickly and runs well, good power and smooth until it warms up. After that it starts running rougher and has less power and stumbles when accelerating. The idle, however is still smooth but starts hard if stalled or shut off. Any ideas? 40s 4ever Greg
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| 1931 Flamingo | -- 03-16-2021 @ 7:13 AM |
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Welcome ! ! Others will probably "chime" in but you might change the condenser also. JMO Paul in CT
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| TomO | -- 03-16-2021 @ 8:00 AM |
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That is a nice looking coupe. Here it is right side up. To isolate your problem with rough running, perform a cylinder balance test. This is done by increasing the rpm until the engine runs rough, by pulling out the throttle. Then short out each plug one at a time and write down the ones that do not reduce the rpm. If you can isolate it to a few cylinders, pull all of the plugs and compare them to this plug chart: http://www.verrill.com/moto/sellingguide/sparkplugs/plugcolorchart.htm If you can determine the source of the problem by the plug chart, repair and then recheck. If you did not determine the source of the problem, perform a dry and wet compression check. I suspect that driving the car with a weak spark fouled some plugs. Tom
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| kubes40 | -- 03-16-2021 @ 8:06 AM |
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I'll take second chair to TomO. I'd suggest you get a coil rebuilt by George Haney. You state you bought a "new" coil. What exactly do you mean by "new"? A reproduction? Oh oh. A NOS? Oh oh. A different one? Oh oh. If your car was in my shop, I'd swap out the coil with one I have a lot of confidence in. I keep a number of Haney coils on the shelf. If that cures the issue, we're done here. If not, I'd then replace the condenser. You need to be careful in condenser selection. I buy mine from Joe's Magnetos, 30mfd's. On "show cars" I hide them within an authentic (Ford script) condenser "sh*ll". Remember to change ONE thing at a time. My gut tells me you have an ignition issue. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| Goofyfixer | -- 03-16-2021 @ 12:14 PM |
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The coil came from Mac's and was stated as being "NEW" which it appears to be. I was thinking that the spark was getting weaker as the engine got warm and wondered about the condenser(s). I actually have 2. There is one mounted to the coil and grounded with one of the distributor mounting bolts and one attached with one of the coil mounting screws with a wire going to the coil voltage wire. Which one should I replace? 40s 4ever Greg
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| kubes40 | -- 03-16-2021 @ 5:00 PM |
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I'd start by replacing the coil with a FORD coil that was rebuilt by George Haney. This may seem to go against logic but rest assured the repop coils are "hit or miss". You get a good one or you don't. You need to have a KNOWN commodity. I'd really suggest you do that first. The condenser that is connected to the top terminal is a static reducer for the radio. At this time, I'd remove that completely. I'd bet heavily the issue is either coil and / or condenser. Remember, one thing at a time. If you don't have a Ford coil to rebuild, call George as he no doubt does. You want this car to be dependable obviously... go to a little extra effort now and enjoy with confidence later. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| alanwoodieman | -- 03-16-2021 @ 6:41 PM |
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Skip Haney coil-yes-yes keep a couple in the drawer all the times for my friends who buy DC coils from whomever, some of these work great others last a few minutes. the one condenser I use one from napa but I don't have the number handy. other problem can be the rotor "button" shorting out on the shaft-cure this with a couple of layers of shrink tubing on shaft
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| JayChicago | -- 03-17-2021 @ 8:50 AM |
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Good spark on start-up but then weak spark after warm up is typical of either bad coil or bad condenser. Yes, they both can show the same symptom, so is difficult to know which is the culprit. And there is no practical way for the average guy to bench test these things under real load conditions, so we are forced to be “parts changers” with these two electrical components. Here’s another thing they have in common that can drive you nuts: some new ones will be bad right out of the box. This message was edited by JayChicago on 3-17-21 @ 9:28 AM
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| Goofyfixer | -- 03-17-2021 @ 10:38 AM |
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Had a nice talk with George "Skip" this morning. Got a lot of good info on other things to check. Also turns out that the 2 coils I got with the car, both with weak spark, had been rebuilt by him in the past. I sent both to him after talking with him. I will continue to report on this thread as I progress with his suggestions and his rebuilt coil. 40s 4ever Greg Oh, and yes, being a semi-retired career auto mechanic, I know too well about how much hair you can pull out with bad new parts. This message was edited by Goofyfixer on 3-17-21 @ 10:40 AM
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| kubes40 | -- 03-17-2021 @ 10:48 AM |
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Hey Goofy, Most likely the coils are not the issue if George had rebuilt them. I suppose even his coils do not last forever. Plus, what none of us know is if anyone in the past had left the ignition on for an expended period. That's a coil killer for certain. I think you are 100% correct in having George check these coils. You MUST be confident in their condition. In the meantime, perhaps you might want to source a condenser with a known (current) good reputation. I really like the ones I'd mentioned previously for Joe Hunt's Magneto's. I had shipped a freshly restored vehicle to the owner just two years ago. And, although I'd placed a tag on the ignition switch "LEVER MUST BE OFF", well, the transport guy left it on and fried a fresh Haney coil. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| Goofyfixer | -- 03-17-2021 @ 4:16 PM |
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We discussed the fact that they should still be good but the fact remains that the car wouldn't start with either of those coils but did with the new one. As you stated and we discussed, the possibility exists that the switch was left on with both of the coils at some point. George also told me the part number for a NAPA condenser that I acquired today but haven't installed yet. The real piece of the puzzle that I found when checking the other things we talked about is that the ballast resistor has 6v going in but only 1.5v coming out. I had checked the voltage at the coil previously, earlier in my investigation and the info source said it should be 2-3v. I had 3 at that time. George said 3 is low and would be better at 4. I ordered a new one that should be here early next week. I will post results after install. 40s 4ever Greg
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| kubes40 | -- 03-17-2021 @ 5:29 PM |
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Greg, I tend to agree that 4v. would be better, however, 3v. should be fine. The fact that the car starts and runs well until warmed up, indicates to me coil and / or condenser. Of course there are always the "odd" little things that frustrate even the most senior of us flathead guys. Worn ignition switch contacts come to mind. I had one car that I swear turned my hair gray seemingly overnight. It would act exactly as if the coil was warming up and shorting out. EXACTLY. Turns out it was one bad spark plug. NEVER in my life had I experienced that. Can't say "never" to that any longer. I tend to go about my diagnosis very methodically. I firmly believe you are going about this as I would. When you get the Haney coil(s) back, install that (that only) with your existing condenser. If that doesn't do the trick, THEN install the new condenser. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| JayChicago | -- 03-18-2021 @ 6:35 AM |
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“Greg, I tend to agree that 4v. would be better, however, 3v. should be fine.“ Yes. With a correct resistor, 3 volts (plus or minus a few tenths) at the coil is all you can expect to see with engine stopped. Later with engine turning, points opening/closing, it will jump up to about 4 volts. BTW, 6 volts at the coil indicates engine happened to stop with points open. Just bump the starter to get points closed.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 03-19-2021 @ 4:51 AM |
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The new ignition components including resistors from Macs do not have a good reputation. The original Ford resistors are best, they measure 0.5 Ohm. The mounting of the resistor can be troublesome due to the brass or steel corroding. Also loose connections on the resistor or the ignition switch can lead to problems. Suggest you go through the ignition wiring looking for problems and correct NAPA has a very good condenser but the appearance is off due to size (smaller) FA49. It mounts to the coil and the distributor mounting bolt to the timing cover where the original condensers mount. IMO remove both of the distributor condensers you have . The condenser with the flat metal strap to one of the coil mounting screws is an improper ignition condenser. The one mounted to the coil mounting screw to the wire feeding voltage to the coil is a radio interference condenser. If it is bad your going to have the same problems as a bad ignition condenser. If you disconnect the radio interference condenser until you resolve the ignition problem it will be one less thing that could be causing the problem. Good Luck
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| Goofyfixer | -- 03-24-2021 @ 6:59 AM |
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Here is the latest report. I ordered a ballast resistor from 3rd Generation Automotive that appeared to be the same style as original. I installed it the day after receiving and had 6v in and 3v out. So far so good. Started the engine and checked while running and had 4v out. Attempted to test drive but just up the street from my house, the clutch equalizer bracket broke and I had to limp home without being able to disengage the clutch. I got the broken part welded and yesterday, took it for a good, long test drive with no loss of power when fully warmed up. I will still install the George Haney coil when I get it and keep the black one for a spare. Next project, it gets very hot, all the way to the "H" on the gage after 15 miles or so at 55mph+ speeds. Don't know if there are thermostats or not but the coolant (yes, coolant, not water) appears to be fairly fresh, clean, full and there are no leaks. Pros and cons with thermostats? I've read that these generally run hot? 40s 4ever Greg
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| 1931 Flamingo | -- 03-24-2021 @ 7:24 AM |
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Many recommend t/stats. Get a Temp Gun at Harbor Freight and check the temps on the engine with that (your gauge or sender may be bad), Aim the gun at the water pumps, heads , top of radiator, bottom of radiator. My 40 drops about 25-30* from top of rad to bottom and about 175 at the head(s). No t'stats. What condition is the radiator in?? Paul in CT
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| Goofyfixer | -- 03-24-2021 @ 7:31 AM |
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I do have one of those. Didn't think to try it. Radiator appears original. Don't know much history on vehicle. I'm the 3rd owner. Original owner is dead and 2nd owner infirmed. Bought it from 2nd owner's nephew who doesn't know many particulars, just generalities. 40s 4ever Greg
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| TomO | -- 03-24-2021 @ 7:51 AM |
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Greg, Do you have a tach dwell meter? If you do, connect it to the condenser terminal of the coil and check the dwell. It should be 34-36 degrees. If it is too long, it will affect the timing and that will lead to overheating. If it only overheats at speeds above 50 mph and your dwell is correct, the vacuum brake or the advance mechanism might not be working correctly. The only way to check this is on a distributor machine or an ignition scope. To check if the vacuum brake is causing the problem, back off the adusting screw all of the way and then turn it in 3 full turns. That should give you enough brake to prevent pinging and allow full advance at speed. You might consider sending your distributor to Cliff Green and have him install a new 11A advance mechanism. He will also check out the performance of your distributor on his distributor machine. He advertises in the V-8 Times classified section. Tom
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| kubes40 | -- 03-24-2021 @ 8:00 AM |
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Greg, The cooling issue? Do test the temps in various places as has been duly advised. The very first thing I'd do after that is flush the cooling system after "soaking" it with white vinegar. You will be (no doubt) amazed at all the "yech" that comes out. The next thing? Either get the radiator rodded out or re-cored. It is doubtful you'll find a shop that will rod it out. A simply dip in their tanks will NOT do the trick. A new and proper split core is $500 even for me. I get one to two done per year locally. The fellow, a young guy, does the job beautifully. High volume pumps are not necessary unless one is attempting to place a band-aid over an underlying issue. Overflow tanks, 4# caps... not needed. I tend to do things once. Yes, perhaps time consuming and costly. However, how much time does it take to wait for a flatbed tow? What's that cost? I trust your goal is to have a car that you can place a decent amount of confidence in and enjoy. If I'm correct in that assumption, some of the things I've advised, although a bit of work and a bit of money, will go a long way in your future enjoyment. That sour taste comes from "I shoulda..." when you're stalled far from home. Mike "Kube" Kubarth
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| Goofyfixer | -- 03-29-2021 @ 6:06 AM |
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1931 Flamingo- I've checked with temp gun and get breading similar to yours. Kubes40- I flushed cooling system with standard cooling system flush chemical then refilled with vinegar and water and did it again. After thoroughly rinsing, I added 50/50 mix coolant and it seems to maybe run a little cooler...a little. I did discover, however that I have 160 degree thermostats and they look fairly new and are working. TomO- I don't know if there is a different dwell meter for 6v, but when I check with my old dwell meter with fresh batteries, I get 44 degrees dwell. Short of sending the distributor in to have it rebuilt, can I set it myself. I assure you, I am a very competent, experienced, professional mechanic. All- I just spoke with George Haney and posed the question to him about the distributor and overheating. He says he doesn't check dwell because his machine is set up to read different. He said as far as running hot, he had a '39 that always ran at the top of the gauge and never really overheated of boiled over. That's pretty much what mine seems to do. He doesn't seem to think it's a timing of point gap issue. Thanks for all your input! 40s 4ever Greg
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| TomO | -- 03-29-2021 @ 10:04 AM |
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Greg, 44 degrees dwell sound like the rubbing block is worn down on the points. Each set of points is set at 22.5 degrees of dwell and the overlap gives you 35 degrees. There are a couple of ways to set the points on the distributor without a distributor machine, but I only have confidence in the one that use a timing fixture like the KR Wilson or Bear timing wheel. Here is a link that may help you: https://myflatheadford.com/helmets-1932-1941-ignition/ You can get very close by setting both sets of points to .015". Tom
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