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EFV-8 Club Forum / General Mercury Discussion / '39 Merc starter button R&R

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Discussion Topic: '39 Merc starter button R&R -- page: 1 2 3

flatcreeker

09-24-2021 @ 1:25 PM

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Drove Merc to generator shop with generator disconnected. Technician ck'd regulator on vehicle, found not functioning correctly. Removed regulator and found field resistor under base burned.

Installed new regulator. Tested on Merc. Found to be putting out 8.9 volts at battery. He performed a multitude of other checks I didn't understand. Said to drive it a bit and see if it settled down and advise. I don't care for that approach. Drove a bit and ck'd: 9 Volts at battery. Dash gauge registered a needle width past the N square but not to the H. The Merc was running flawlessly; no stumble/stutter. It did stumble a bit driving on the battery w/o generator.

The original regulator (one on Merc when I bought rather, and had been on it for a while-I put 1,600 miles on it with this regulator with no issues) is marked 7141 6V JC6, and came with a blue cover (painted black). The 3 subsequent regulators had same 7141 6V and blue cover but different final three alpha numeric designations (date codes?). I am told all were US manufacture. I am not going to drive the Merc with this gen output.

Other than killing another regulator, what harm can I do adjusting the voltage relay spring tab for lower voltage, provided I only decrease the voltage? If I see it right, the spring has only about 1/16-3/32" of travel. I don't have much confidence in my ability to bend the spring tab UP with needle nose pliers with any degree of precision(reducing spring tension and reducing voltage required to open contacts.

flatcreeker

09-24-2021 @ 1:31 PM

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I have constructed a wedge from non conductive material with which to bend tab up with better control. I have tested it on bad regulator and it holds promise.

What do you think?

Also, can you recommend a source for good US regulators? I'd like to keep a spare on hand. They're not cheap but I ain't getting no younger.

Thanks for your continued counsel.

TomO

09-27-2021 @ 8:20 AM

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It sounds like you have burned out the Field resister again. Your problem may be that you are using the wrong voltage regulator. Another possible cause fir your problem is a short in the armature or the wiring to ground. You need to have the generator armature and armature wiring checked for an unwanted ground and then replace the voltage regulator with one from a trusted source. Whenever you service the generator or voltage regulator, make sure that you have the battery disconnected.

I would not buy a voltage regulator from E-Bay, because many vendors are just selling stuff that they think is correct for your car. If you don't know the difference, you could cause problems. You can have your original voltage regulator tested or buy a new one from a trusted source like Third Gen on the east coast or C&G Ford parts on the west coast.

There are 3 relays in a voltage regulator, one is the cutout to prevent the generator from trying to motor, another is the current regulator to adjust the amount of current the generator puts out and the 3rd is the voltage regulator to regulate the voltage that the generator puts out.

When I adjust a voltage regulator, I check all 3 relays for correct adjustment, using a generator test set. My test set also checks for unwanted grounding conditions. This allows me to do the settings without damaging the generator or voltage regulator.

Tom

flatcreeker

10-05-2021 @ 7:17 PM

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Greetings TomO=

Just in from the Savannah Airport. I took a bit of a vacation out west. Hadn't seen the big mountains since Covid started. Actually my first commercial flight in about 20 months. Good to see the other side of the hill.

Have to tend to some medical stuff before returning to the cabin and the Merc; curse of the aging process. I'm not complaining mind you. I'm in pretty good shape for a 75 year old coot.

The regulator issues began with a battery too weak to turn over the engine after one 40-50 mile run. Found the cutout in regulator not closing. That was the beginning of replacing the regulator. Other than simply a bad regulator, what might precipitate that bad cutout? As mentioned previously, I'd put about 1,500 miles on the Merc since acquiring with no relate issues.

Will contact Third Gen for a regulator. They don't seem to mention Mercury, period. Am I to assume if they say regulator for a '39 Ford, it's good for a '39 Merc? Plan to telephone them to order to make sure we're singing from the same song-sheet.

Best to you and thanks again.

Kens 36

10-06-2021 @ 7:15 AM

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If you call Third Gen, wait until next week. Michael is in Hershey this week.

Ken

TomO

10-07-2021 @ 8:38 AM

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The contact points in the cut out relay of the voltage regulator probably had some corrosion from lack of use. The cutout relay picks and closes the points when the voltage from the generator reaches 6.3V - 6.9V. When the points close, they complete the circuit that allows the voltage regulator current relays to operate.

Here is a link to how generators work http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/91.cfm

Here is a link to how voltage regulators work http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/83.cfm

Your generator is a type B generator. Type B generators have and internally grounded field.

While you are waiting for the new voltage regulator, have your generator checked for unwanted grounding. When you remove or install a generator or voltage regulator always disconnect the battery. Leave the field wire disconnected so you can polarize the generator by touching the field wire from the generator to the BATT terminal of the regulator.

Tom

flatcreeker

10-09-2021 @ 12:18 PM

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TomO-

Greetings. Thanks for the information. I have read the two pieces on Second Chance (and book marked there website). It confirms my general understanding about function of Gen and Reg. I can't say I digested the details of the generator function. And some of the nuances of the regulator went past me. I do understand the general function of the three coils and relays.

You mention your Generator Test Set. Is this something which functions with generator and regulator installed on Merc or on a test bench? My guy did all the last testing on vehicle with a handheld multimeter with an induction ammeter. I recall he got both excessively high voltage and amperage. That tells me, right or wrong, that both Fld and Arm coil/relay are out of adjustment. Or, as you indicated, possibly something amiss in the generator grounding or an incorrect regulator.

Do you have a part number for the correct voltage regulator?

Also, my generator pulley is smaller diameter than what I see in the Ford Service Bulletin S-10000, which calls for the 91A generator pulley OD to be 3.68". Mine measures about 3.18" measured at the forward most flange OD. I don't see how this would affect the generator/regulator function, other than result in a lower engine rpm when the cutout closes and the fld and arm relays cycle. I understand that pulley size could vary depending on customer's type of service.

Am I capable of testing the generator for faulty internal grounding with only a volt meter?

I plan to call Third Gen on Monday about a new Regulator and return to the cabin and hands-on the Merc on Wednesday.

TomO

10-11-2021 @ 7:43 AM

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My test set will test the generator and voltage regulator on the car.

I don't know how your guy set the regulator, but it is unusual to have to adjust a new regulator. From your description of the problem, I think that your high voltage are caused by no regulation due to a shorted shunt resister in the field circuit of the regulator.

The most common cause of this is a shorted or grounded armature or in the generator. It could also be caused by something on the firewall touching the resisters on the bottom of the voltage regulator. If you have the battery connected when you change voltage regulators, you might damage the regulator.

I don't know what P/N Third Gen uses for their voltage regulator, just ask for one for a 1939 Mercury.

The smaller pulley would not be contributing to your problem. It just allows the generator to provide voltage at a lower RPM.

"Am I capable of testing the generator for faulty internal grounding with only a volt meter?" I don't have a procedure to do this with just a volt meter.

Tom

flatcreeker

10-14-2021 @ 9:40 AM

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Back at the cabin and the Merc. I'm glad to see it didn't run off.

My guy didn't make any adjustments to the new regulator he installed.

I remove the battery grnd cable every time before working on/removing/installing anything electrical.

There is no contact between resistors under regulator and firewall.

I ordered a regulator from 3rd Gen, only specifying '39 Merc. Hope to have tomorrow or Saturday.

I have continuity between the generator case and field terminal on generator. Same with case and terminal on back of generator. Same between field terminal and terminal on back of generator Is that as it should be? Seems a bit incestuous.

I understand voltage at battery when charging by generator should max at between 7.2V-7.5V. What should be max current? Should I test for max current with lights and accessories on or off?

I want a multimeter with clamp type ammeter. Could you recommend one? Absent advice to the contrary, I'll go with a Fluke. I know I'm likely looking at $100-300. I'm ok with that as I don't see tool costs as frivolous. Are there any analog induction ammeters out there? The only analog ammeters I see require an in-line device.

Thanks again for your counsel. I am learning, but d*mn it seems slow. You know you could save me a lot of time if you came and spent a week at the cabin.

This message was edited by flatcreeker on 10-14-21 @ 11:37 AM

TomO

10-15-2021 @ 8:37 AM

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I have been using a Klein Tools Electrical Tester that I bought at Home Depot for doing electrical work around the house for the past 9 years and have been happy with it. I find little use for an ammeter in maintaining my old cars. A good analog multi-meter is useful. Most of the time I use the analog meter on my automotive test set that includes a dwell meter and tachometer. I have used the Fluke meters in the past and they are very good.

Both the Arm and Field terminals will read continuity to ground. See attached photo.

Max current on your generator should be 30 Amps, if the generator has not been modified to 40 amps.

Make sure that the generator and voltage regulator are grounded.

Again, the voltage regulator should not need any adjustment. Have your generator tested again by the generator shop, then install it and the new regulator at the same time. Polarize the generator by touching the field wire to the BAT terminal of the voltage regulator. Then check that the generator and voltage regulator have good grounds.

Now you should be good to go.

Tom

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