| o2bnkc | -- 03-21-2021 @ 12:38 PM |
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I just bought my 40 Deluxe Convertible a couple of weeks ago and I love it. My book (It's Ford for 40) came the other day and I've already put it to use. When I test drove the car, I just putted around the guy's neighborhood and it ran fine and we made the deal. I just replaced the 6 volt battery and an inline fuel filter and it was running great. Yesterday coming home from a short trip, it started cutting out like it was starving for fuel. It would run and then cut out and then run and then cut out. The fuel filter had a couple of particles in it, but it wasn't bad. I replaced the filter again today. It's still doing the same thing when I get up to speed, but now it dies completely instead of just surging back and forth like yesterday. The fuel bowl is full. (Should it have a paper filter in that?) I've got a carb rebuild kit for the original Holley carb on order. It starts up and idles fine. I just have the problem when it gets up around 25-30. This is my first flathead, so I am learning on the fly. Thanks.
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| kubes40 | -- 03-21-2021 @ 1:17 PM |
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It doesn't sound like a fuel issue. Most likely an ignition issue. Coil is the "usual suspect" then the condenser. Most guys that plan on driving their car with a good degree of confidence, will have the distributor rebuilt by one of a couple of reputable persons. George (Skip) Haney, Charlie Schwendler come to mind. Then source a GOOD quality condenser. I would also check the plug wires as long as your at it. Mike "Kube" Kubarth This message was edited by kubes40 on 3-21-21 @ 4:21 PM
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| o2bnkc | -- 03-21-2021 @ 3:56 PM |
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I have a Pertronix Ignitor module I was planning on installing when the points needed replacing. I guess this is as good a time as any. What should the coil resistance read if it's good?
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| kubes40 | -- 03-21-2021 @ 4:21 PM |
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I'd suggest getting the authentic distributor set up by Charlie Schwendler. If he does it, it will be reliable for thousands of miles. You'll never have that confidence with a Pentronix. I think you will be amazed at just how well these old flatheads perform when set up properly with the original parts. I'd like to remind you that these ran for decades just fine without so called "upgrades". My advice? Apply the KISS method of repairs. Keep It Simple Stup-- Mike "Kube" Kubarth This message was edited by kubes40 on 3-21-21 @ 4:23 PM
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| TomO | -- 03-22-2021 @ 7:54 AM |
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Here is my opinion. The Pertronix ignition works fine when it is working, when it fails it makes the car inoperable. and the usually fail without warning. A distributor set up properly and maintained, will not need points for around 15,000 miles. The point distributor will give you warning by being hard to start or missing before failing completely. Mike is correct in blaming the coil as that is the most common problem with rough running. I would check the spark when the engine is at operating temperature by removing on plug wire and holding it near a head nut. A good ignition system will give you a spark that is blue in color and about 1/2" long. If the spark is orange or weak and you have the original type coil (mounted to the top of the distributor), I would remove the distributor and send the assembly to Skip Haney in Florida to check out the ignition system. He has a turnaround of about one week. Here is his contact information: http://www.fordcollector.com/coils.htm Tom
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| JayChicago | -- 03-22-2021 @ 9:27 AM |
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o2bnkz:"What should the coil resistance read if it's good?" Assuming your new car is still 6 volt, still using an original type coil on the distributor, the primary circuit of the coil should be about 1.0 ohm. BUT...these coils are known to work fine on start up, then fail when warm. The tiny internal windings are fragile and short or go open when warm under electrical load. So a test of the coil in the garage won't tell you how it will perform under real driving conditions. New coils have a reputation for being just as fragile, with a short life span. Most of us now rely on a coil rebuilt by Skip Haney. He uses better winding wire, better insulating material, or ??? (its proprietary...he doesn't talk about it) His rebuilt coils are not expensive, and have an excellent reputation. This message was edited by JayChicago on 3-22-21 @ 11:11 AM
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| RAK402 | -- 03-22-2021 @ 3:03 PM |
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Several people have mentioned that the quality of the new coils leaves something to be desired. Putting my own two cents in, I have had two fail on me after not too long of a time in service. In one case, the car just stopped running, in the other, I had worked late, and the car would not start (I was 30 miles from home-the car came home on a flatbed truck). I keep a spare coil in the trunk (a used, aftermarket one that came on the car). I will be seeking Mr. Haney's service for the next coil.
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| o2bnkc | -- 03-28-2021 @ 2:31 AM |
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This message was edited by o2bnkc on 3-28-21 @ 2:44 AM
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-04-2021 @ 6:34 PM |
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Well, I'm still having the same problems. I replaced the coil and condenser. It still wouldn't start. Replaced the terrible looking plugs (carbon fouled, all black) and it fired right up. I let it idle for several minutes while I tried to put the convertible top down. (that's another issue!) It started running very hot. I shut it down for a few minutes and then took it out for a spin. It ran great for about 15 minutes then sputtered and died. Started it back up and it sputtered and died. I finally had my friend come down and we towed it home. I finally got it started again, but I had to keep the choke out to keep it going. I'm thinking it's the carb. That was my original guess. Any ideas? You guys know a lot more about these engines than I do. Also, I'm at 5500 ft. I bought the car in Los Angeles. Do you think it could be running too rich up here? Thanks. A Proud Navy Vet This message was edited by o2bnkc on 4-4-21 @ 6:39 PM
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| carcrazy | -- 04-04-2021 @ 7:01 PM |
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Yes, the car is running too rich. One rule of thumb to get a car to run better at altitude (5,000 to 5,500 feet where the air is less dense and the atmospheric pressure is less) is to go down two main metering jet (MMJ) sizes and advance the ignition timing by about 4 degrees crankshaft.
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| TomO | -- 04-05-2021 @ 7:13 AM |
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Before you take the carburetor apart, check the spark as I said in my previous post. A weak spark can cause black sooty plugs. Another cause would be idling the engine for long periods without driving the car. The parts available for these old cars are not the quality of the parts offered when the car was newer. You must perform diagnostic procedures to isolate the failing part. Not doing this will result in replacing good parts with parts that may not work as well and introduce new problems. Tom
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-05-2021 @ 9:52 AM |
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I've got a good spark, but the plug is all black and sooty from just running it that short time the other day. I haven't checked the points yet. I'm kind of leery about pulling the distributor off. Can I just pull it off, check/replace the points and put it back on? Do I need to do anything special before I pull it off or put back on? A Proud Navy Vet
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| ford38v8 | -- 04-05-2021 @ 5:26 PM |
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Check my reply to your other thread. Two threads going at the same time is hard to follow and will conflict with each other. Alan
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| TomO | -- 04-06-2021 @ 7:47 AM |
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I agree with Alan that you should let one of the topics die. My vote is to keep this topic as the title is more relevant to the problem. I would not pull off the distributor at this time. I don't think that the problem is in the points at this time. The distributor is driven directly from the camshaft. The drive tang is off set so that it will be in time when installed properly. When you install the distributor, you must make sure that it fits tight against the timing cover, before tightening any bolts. To replace the points, you need a distributor machine or a timing fixture. Here is a duplicate of the reply that I posted in your other topic: Let's start over. Have you checked the spark for about 1/2" of blue spark at idle when the engine is at operating temperature? if you have good spark, you might have some debris in the fuel tank. Check your fuel delivery. Use the procedure below as it will show most deficiencies in fuel delivery. To check fuel delivery, you need a graduated 16 ounce or larger container to determine the amount of fuel delivered in a measured time. Disconnect the fuel pump line from the carburetor and direct it into a graduated container. Crank the engine long enough to get 2 ounces of gas in the container and then continue cranking for 15 more strokes of the pump. The pump should have delivered 6 more ounces of gas. If you don't get the additional 6 ounces of fuel, the most likely cause is the flex line, followed by the line from the tank, plugged pickup in the tank or weak fuel pump. If the car passes these tests in the driveway, then take it out for short drives around the neighborhood. If it acts up, pull out the choke half way to see if it improves. If it does improve, you probably have debris in the tank. If it does not improve, check the spark while the car has the problem and also operate the accelerator linkage while looking down the throat of the carburetor to see if you get 2 strong streams of fuel from the accelerator nozzles. One of these tests should point you in the correct direction. Tom Tom
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-06-2021 @ 4:44 PM |
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Here's what I've done with the fuel part, so far. The very first time I had this problem where it was sputtering and dying, I changed the inline fuel filter. It ran great. I took it on a little 40 mile drive, but coming home it started sputtering again. I was doing 50 mph and it never died, so it made the last 15 miles home. It's a clear inline filter and it was pretty clean. I took the glass bowl off of the fuel pump and cleaned it good. There really wasn't anything in there. I put it back on, cranked the engine and let it fill back up. Replaced the coil, condenser, and plugs. I left the inline filter out this time, just to make sure that wasn't the problem. Got it running pretty well. I took off for a little ride. It ran great for about 15 minutes then sputtered and died. Waited a few minutes. Started up, ran a couple of blocks and died. Did this a few times and then we towed it home. Now the electrical side. I'm getting 6 volts to the coil when I turn the switch on. This is a new remote coil, with the condenser on a plate on top of the distributer. I just got an original style coil and condenser, but I was saving these to put on later. After seeing I was getting 6 volts to the coil, I looked up under the dash and didn't see any wires going to the ignition resistor. Could that be my problem? A Proud Navy Vet
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| TomO | -- 04-07-2021 @ 9:20 AM |
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If you bought the coil that fits the 1949-1955 Ford, you do not need an ignition resister. You do need to check that the thin wire going to the adapter plate comes from the + terminal of the coil if your car is still positive ground. If you bought another coil, I can't help you with the resister or connections as they are specific to the coil. It is not unusual to get a bad new coil and they fail when hot, that is why I asked you to check your spark when the engine is up to normal operating temperature. Your latest explanation sound like you have debris in the tank, rusted fuel line or bad flex line. You can replace the flex line with a piece of fuel rated hose temporarily to see if that is your problem. Do not leave it in permanently as it will cause starting problems. I don't think that you have a rusted fuel line because you said that the fuel filter and the sediment bowl were clean. Debris in the tank will float away from the pickup when the engine is not running. This gives you a short drive and then you are in trouble. The only way to eliminate this is to flush the tank. The drain plug is usually rusted in place. The way that I remove them is soak a rag in penetrating solution and then place it around the plug. Next I fill a small foil pan with penetrant and tape it to the bottom of the tank. This will keep the rag up there and keep the rag wet. Use Gorilla Tape as it will hold heavy items. Clean the tank bottom with soap and water and then alcohol to make sure the tape will stick. Let it soak for a couple of days then use a 10" or larger Crescent type adjustable wrench to try to remove the plug. If this doesn't work, you will have to remove the tank to flush it. Good Luck Tom
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-07-2021 @ 7:07 PM |
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The coil is for a 40 and it says battery and distributor on the terminals, I think I got those hooked up right. I tried to drain the tank the other day. That plug is not budging. It's almost like it's welded on! Again, could it be bypassing the ignition resister and getting the coil too hot? Does this new remote coil have a resister in it? The coil was very hot to the touch. Is it supposed to be that hot? Again, the 6 volts was at the coil terminal and at the coil plug going into the distributor. A Proud Navy Vet
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| trjford8 | -- 04-08-2021 @ 7:45 AM |
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If the coil is hot to the touch that is not a good sign. Usually means the coil is bad/defective.
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| TomO | -- 04-08-2021 @ 8:24 AM |
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The coil should not be so hot that you cannot touch it. I don't know where you bought your coils, but the 1940 Ford coil mounts on top of the distributor and takes the place of the adapter that you have. Because I don't know anything about your coil, I don't know if it requires a resistor. It is not unusual to get a bad new coil since the manufacture of them has shifted from the US to China. Most of the guys are using the NAPA IC7 coil, for the 1949-1955 Ford.. They have shifted manufacturing to China now and the chances of a new coil failing in a few miles has increased. The best test of a coil is to check the spark when the engine is at operating temperatures. You can get an idea of the condition of the coil by checking the resistance. The primary circuit should read 1.0-1.4 ohms across the BAT and DIST terminals on your coil and 5.8K-9.2K reading from the BAT terminal to the high tension socket. I don't know how your coil is mounted, but most of the coils should be mounted vertical with the terminals at the top. Mounting them laying on the side can cause them to fail due to cooling problems. Tom
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| 37RAGTOPMAN | -- 04-08-2021 @ 1:08 PM |
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check your coil and cond and the resister on the inside firewall, even the contacts on the back of ignition switch, to see if worn or corroded, any loose connections,? most of the time is where the trouble lies, have the distributer rebuilt with the coil at the same time, also you could look at I would try it without a fuel filter, just for testing, and see if that makes a difference, in the fuel pump on the engine, there should be a screen for a filter ,inside under the top cap, when you have the filter off. with the gas cap off., try blowing air though the fuel line from front to rear, a small air compressor or a tire pump. see if you hear bubbles, it might be over filtered, check the fuel line front to rear and see if there is any kinks, or more filters. also if when you are on the road, cross the terminals on the resister with a jumper wire with 2 clips and see if that makes a difference, if it does the coil is weak, I would suggest a good going over to correct the problem,. my 2 cents 37Ragtopman This message was edited by 37RAGTOPMAN on 4-8-21 @ 4:50 PM
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-08-2021 @ 8:55 PM |
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Again, there are no wires going up to the resistor on the firewall. There is 6 volts going to the coil when the switch is on. It is a remote coil riding on a bracket on top of the generator. It gets pretty hot. I just got an original style coil, but if I have to many volts going to it, I don't want to burn it up when I put it on the distributor. I guess I need to run the power through that resistor first. A Proud Navy Vet
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| carcrazy | -- 04-08-2021 @ 10:36 PM |
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You are correct. If you run the original Ford coil, you need to have the resistor in the circuit feeding current to the coil.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 04-09-2021 @ 4:51 AM |
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You seem to want the car repaired before switching out to the new coil and condenser. I would try the easiest thing first and replace your existing condenser with a NAPA FA54 which is for the 46-48 Ford and appears my fit your needs. Then try it again to see if the thermal problem is gone. Other wise change to the new coil and condenser. Make sure the Ford ignition resistor of 0.5 Ohm is connected all the wiring is connected properly and with clean connections.
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| RAK402 | -- 04-09-2021 @ 12:48 PM |
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I am watching this thread every day. I am really curious as to what the cause is and how the issue is corrected!
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| TomO | -- 04-10-2021 @ 7:53 PM |
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Have you checked your spark when the engine is at operating temperature? Did you do the fuel delivery test? If you did please post the results. Tom
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-12-2021 @ 3:39 PM |
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I am still working on the problem. I rebuilt the carb but I am waiting for my smaller jets and power valve. Another dumb question, though. I received my original style coil, but am a little confused on how the condenser is mounted. I can't find any pics. Is it mounted on that tab on the bottom? I see that it will screw into the terminal on top, also. Again, this is my first flathead, so be gentle. A Proud Navy Vet
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| TomO | -- 04-13-2021 @ 7:01 AM |
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The condenser is mounted on the little tab on the coil and the grounding connection is the bolt for the distributor. Unfortunately I do not have a photo right now. When I install a power valve, I use the gasket with the triangular cutout. I just hand tighten it and then put some gas in the bowl so that it just reaches the top of the power valve and let it sit over night. If it leaks down at night, I tighten the valve one sixth of a turn and repeat the test. If you have to make more than 3 tries, you should give up and send the carburetor to Charley Schwendler in NY to have it machined and rebuilt Here is his Email: cas5845@yahoo.com Again, I would like to caution you about replacing parts without diagnosing the problem. I would go ahead and install the correct coil if you bought it from Skip or it was rebuilt by Skip. I do not have any faith in the reproduction coils as I have tested too many that would fail when the heat test was used. Tom
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| cliftford | -- 04-13-2021 @ 7:27 AM |
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Just in case I missed it, is your gas cap vented? or could it be vented and the hole is plugged?
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-14-2021 @ 6:00 PM |
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The coil had a Dennis Carpenter sticker on the box but I purchased it from C&G Ford Parts. I'm still not sure how you are saying to mount the condenser. At one end of the condenser there is a screw hole. Is that the end that should be mounted to the tab at the bottom of the coil with a screw? The silver tab then should be mounted through one of the bolts that holds the coil on the distributor? Now the carb. There was always a strong smell of gas when the car was running or off. There was a little gas leaking from the gasket when I first brought it home, so I tightened the five screws down (upper part), but the gasket was bad. The rubber vacuum line to the tube in the back of the engine was not very tight either. I put a hose clamp around that. Several of the small gaskets inside the carb were missing. I put the rebuild kit in it and then decided to order some smaller jets(.045's), power valve(5.5), and some more carb parts after talking to Charlie Price at Vintage Speed. That's where it stands now. I'm waiting for the carb parts and trying to figure out how the condenser fits on the coil. Thanks to everyone so far for their advice. I am trying everything. Oh, about the gas cap. All I know is that it has the Ford script on it and it is a locking cap. A Proud Navy Vet This message was edited by o2bnkc on 4-14-21 @ 6:23 PM
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| RAK402 | -- 04-14-2021 @ 11:08 PM |
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o2bnkc, This is not a terribly clear drawing, but it might help. I should have my car out this weekend-if no one else has supplied a good, stock distributor photo, I will take one for you. As I recall, the long tab on the condenser (with the large, oblong hole in it) goes under the head of the top, passenger side distributor mounting bolt (you can see its outline on the left side of the drawing). This message was edited by RAK402 on 4-14-21 @ 11:13 PM
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| RAK402 | -- 04-15-2021 @ 6:15 PM |
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o2bnkc, I realized that I had a spare distributor in the trunk of the car (I keep one that has been timed and set up with me anytime I drive the car, as well as a spare coil). This should answer your questions regarding the mounting of the condenser.
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-15-2021 @ 7:37 PM |
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They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks for going to the trouble of taking and posting these pics!!!!! A Proud Navy Vet
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-15-2021 @ 7:41 PM |
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I mentioned the vacuum line in my previous post because my convertible top is..........well , let's just say it doesn't work to well without my help. I don't think I have good vacuum. That's for later down the road, though. A Proud Navy Vet
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| RAK402 | -- 04-15-2021 @ 9:18 PM |
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o2bnkc, You are welcome sir! Does the vacuum line leak? That can make the engine run poorly.
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| 40 Coupe | -- 04-16-2021 @ 5:11 PM |
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Your car is never going to run correctly with low vacuum. I suggest you put a vacuum gauge on and read. If it's running, ger it warm, you can also adjust the carb. idle mixture adjustment at the same time to get the vacuum as high as possible. Plus the vacuum gauge will give you a lot of hints as to what is going on.
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-16-2021 @ 8:34 PM |
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That's the stuff I need to know! Thanks! A Proud Navy Vet
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-17-2021 @ 6:17 PM |
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Well, here's the latest. I put the new jets in my carb and with the rebuild it seems to have worked. I also installed the new original style coil and condenser. The car runs pretty good now. I think my main problem was the carb. I ran it some today and then pulled the plugs. Instead of being all sooty and black, they were fairly clean. The car ran ok. The only problem I am having now, is that it hesitates or stumbles when I first press on the gas. Even between shifts it stumbles when I press the accelerator. Any ideas on this little problem? Would the vacuum have anything to do with this? I have to get a vacuum gauge. A Proud Navy Vet This message was edited by o2bnkc on 4-17-21 @ 6:19 PM
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| RAK402 | -- 04-17-2021 @ 7:48 PM |
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The vacuum line from the intake manifold/valve cover goes to your windshield wiper motor and the convertible top. If it were my car, knowing that you have vacuum issues with the top, I would temporarily disconnect the vacuum hose leading into the firewall at the tube on the intake manifold, and install a short hose with a plug in the end on the tube. That will eliminate the old vacuum line as a source of trouble. If it doesn't change anything, you will know vacuum was not the problem. If it runs fine after, then you have found the cause. Please keep us posted sir.
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| carcrazy | -- 04-17-2021 @ 9:01 PM |
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If the car stumbles on acceleration, the accelerator pump may be delivering too much fuel. If the car hesitates on acceleration the accelerator pump may not be delivering enough fuel. Too much fuel can be shown by black smoke coming out of the tailpipe (you will need an outside helper to view this). Too little fuel in an extreme case can result in a backfire through the carburetor. Did you add about 4 degrees of spark advance to compensate for the slower burning of the fuel at altitude?
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| TomO | -- 04-18-2021 @ 7:43 AM |
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I would follow RAK402's advice. If that does not fix the problem, check for proper accelerator pump operation, by looking down the throat of the carburetor, with the ignition OFF and operating the accelerator linkage. You should see 2 strong streams of fuel coming from the accelerator jets. Tom
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| o2bnkc | -- 04-18-2021 @ 12:19 PM |
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How do I advance the timing on this distributor? I'm afraid to mess with it. I'm used to sbc and timing lights. I did get a couple of backfires through the carb yesterday. I am getting gas from the squirter cluster, but I don't know how "strong" it's supposed to be. I will also check the vacuum per RAK402's advice. Stand by for further results and thanks for the help. A Proud Navy Vet
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| RAK402 | -- 04-18-2021 @ 9:06 PM |
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On the side of the distributor, you will find a slot head screw with a hexagonal head (the Advance Lock Screw), under it is a metal plate with lines scribed into it. You loosen the screw and move the plate with bolt up and down to change the timing. As I recall, there is a reference line on the distributor casting (to use with the scribed lines on the plate). This is something I would not touch if you are not familiar with it. Most people send their distributors in to get them timed on stroboscopes-some of the club members here do this. Some Antique Ford parts sellers perform it as a service or do it on an exchange basis. At the very least, you will need a timing fixture to do it (these can be very hard to find). Note that attaching and removing the coil can change both the dwell and the timing (due to the downward pressure of the spring on the bottom of the coil against the Breaker Plate). KenCT and TomO. have posted about distributors and timing-you might try a search-they are both very knowledgeable. This message was edited by RAK402 on 4-18-21 @ 10:50 PM
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| 40 Coupe | -- 04-19-2021 @ 4:28 AM |
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Should be a stream of fuel from the nozzle bars, not drips. Do you have a diagram for the carburetor, did you put in all the parts? There is a brass check valve needle that must be inserted under the nozzel bars and a ball bearing and clip under the accelerator pump. Where did you get your rebuilding kit? Daytona sells a good kit. There have been problems with the kits with the accelerator pump being short. If your distributor timing plate is set for one mark above the casting mark leave it alone. The timing plate should be about one mark above center. This message was edited by 40 Coupe on 4-21-21 @ 4:45 AM
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| Natalkirlin | -- 05-03-2021 @ 4:19 AM |
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These engines are very legendary. From my point of view, these are the best engines that ford made. Regarding the fact that they are powerful, we must consider that this one lasts a lot of time.
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| RAK402 | -- 06-06-2021 @ 6:21 PM |
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o2bnkc, Did your rough running issue get resolved?
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| sarahcecelia | -- 06-11-2021 @ 9:17 AM |
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My 1940 did that coming home from a show( about 4 times), and i nursed it along, but finally the motor quit! Dummy me- the electric fuel pump was turned off! I turned it on, and it started and ran ran fine!! If you have one that's the problem; if they are not on ALL OF THE TIME, it will starve for fuel! Regards, Steve Lee
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| 1931 Flamingo | -- 06-11-2021 @ 10:36 AM |
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I disagree. My flathead with 2 97's and hi-comp heads runs fine on the stock (rebuilt) pump. I only use the electric to prime if it's been sitting for a while. Paul in CT
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| o2bnkc | -- 06-12-2021 @ 10:37 PM |
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After messing with the carb the last few weeks I threw in the towel and replaced it with a Dennis Carpenter carb. I put it on yesterday and the car is running great. It fired right up and hasn't missed a beat. I didn't have to make any adjustments to any of the screws. Amazing! No dead spots. No rough running after getting warmed up. No cutting out. No fouling of the plugs. I don't even know what size the jets are. I drove about 70 miles today and it was a pleasure. I don't know what is wrong with the original Holley, but the only thing I didn't replace was the throttle plates and linkage. Next thing to do is work on the vacuum leak to the power top. A Proud Navy Vet
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| RAK402 | -- 06-13-2021 @ 1:45 PM |
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I am very glad to hear that you got it sorted out and running well sir!
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