| len47merc | -- 06-20-2016 @ 5:53 PM |
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For such a simple receptacle, the driver's side brake light (only - taillight works fine without fail) on my '47 is routinely not producing light only after leaving on a drive. Have sanded and polished all contacts and even switched rear light bulbs side-to-side with no success. I disassemble the light, re-seat the fiber insulating plate holding the two spring loaded button head contacts for the light, reassemble the light and BINGO - it works every time. Put the light/lens back together, check it before a drive, it works, so out on the road I go. Within 10-15 minutes invariably someone is up beside me at a stop telling me the driver's side brake light is out. Crap. Finish the drive, back home, disassemble the light, reassemble - same results - light now works. Out on the road next trip it's out again and the cycle has continued like this for the last several outings. I have even just removed and reinstalled the light bulb and the brake light begins to work immediately but again it's out after 10-15 minutes on the road the next drive. Clearly I'm losing my mind on this one as I've continued to do the same thing and expect a different result - recipe for failure. The taillight is never affected - it always works with consistent brightness. When the brake light is working it exhibits consistent brightness as well. Upon returning to the house with the brake light not working the taillight is always on and working. Once removing the light Fluke multi-meter continuity tests reveal no short or disconnect. Gremlins. Any thoughts, recommendations and/or experience on this is GREATLY appreciated. Steve
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-20-2016 @ 8:01 PM |
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Steve, You've not mentioned the ground connection even once! Your monkeying with it at home apparently is enough to firm up the ground, but on the road, vibrations break that important connection. Ford used the body and fenders to complete the circuit, which was just fine for the first 20 or 30 years, but 69 years is pushing the envelope! Run a dedicated ground from the light bucket to a known good ground. The fender just doesn't cut it. Same goes for the headlights! Alan
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| len47merc | -- 06-21-2016 @ 4:26 AM |
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Thanks Alan. I indirectly referred to the ground when stating the taillight - not the brake light - which is the same bulb, same socket, same side - always is working even when the brake light is not. That is what is baffling to me - if it were a ground issue would not the tail light also be affected? Something must be so obvious here that I am looking right past it. To address your suggestion Alan, when bringing the '47 back after its Rumpelstiltskin slumber I took advice from this Forum (likely yours and Tom's but can't remember for sure) and went through all ground points including completely removing all light fixtures, cleaning and baring the metal and reassembling then sealing the exposed metal, this before starting the car. I was also naive and inexperienced with Rouge class judging and got a bit anal at the time about ensuring originality prior to the first Rouge class judging and did not add any non-original dedicated ground wires but did also clean and bare the metal and corresponding 3 bolts on each fender-to-body connection. Have never had a ground issue since that time. Just can't get past the tail light working without fail while the brake light is exhibiting intermittent functionality. Intuitively I FEEL like something is going on with the tail light socket wire (believe it is part#29A-13410-LS) terminal for the brake light side but I can't find it. Help my stubborn ole' mind get over this and understand logically how this can be a ground issue when the mating tail light element in the same bulb always works. I need to grasp that concept so I can let go of the socket and socket wire that is burning in my brain. Still baffled in NC... Steve
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| cliftford | -- 06-21-2016 @ 5:16 AM |
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By any chance do you have turn signals with the stop light circuit runnung through them? When the left stop light fails, is it still getting power? Just some thoughts.
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| len47merc | -- 06-21-2016 @ 5:20 AM |
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No turn signals cliftford - only tail lights and brake lights (and license plate/trunk handle light). Tail lights (both sides), trunk handle/license plate light and passenger side plate brake light always work, again even when the driver's side brake light is not functioning. Still stumped. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 6-21-16 @ 7:00 AM
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| TomO | -- 06-21-2016 @ 7:22 AM |
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Here is my SWAG. The wire may only have a couple of strands making contact. It could be a loose bullet connection, bad crimp or a broken wire. Check the bullet connector for that light to make sure that the connection is good and that the bullets snap into place. If that doesn't fix it, remove the wires from the tail light assembly and try pulling the bullet connector off and if that is secure, try pulling off the bulb contact. If both are secure, try installing new wires in the tail light assembly. Tom
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| len47merc | -- 06-21-2016 @ 7:54 AM |
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Thanks Tom - I'll give your swag a go next. The bullet connections for that short tail/brake light harness seem solid - just checked and cleaned them with emery cloth 20 minutes ago and gave 'em both a good tug and they seem firm. Also cleaned the single female wire connector and all is very snug/tight and clean after reassembly. Main wiring harness end also checked and cleaned and is strong. Still thinkin' it's gotta be in the spring loaded brass button head connection for the brake light somehow. I didn't check it for tightness just now but did check continuity again and it's there. For my personal SWAG I decided to cut two very short (~3/16"-1/4") pieces of insulating tubing (just large enough to fit over each round-head contact & spring) and place them over the springs and button head connectors to both provide more support for the ends/keep them better aligned and as well ensure no possible shorting between the two and/or the outside of the socket. I know - I know - makes absolutely no sense technically given the other lights' behaviors but I'm pulling at straws here. All lights are again workin' properly now (in the garage) - will take it out this evening for the obligatory 30 minute exhaust system dry out minimum cruise and see if the driver's side only brake light, failure-on-the-road-only phenomenon repeats itself. Tom, if a no go again with this illogical-but-let's-try-it-anyway insulating tubing step I'll pull it again and check the ends of the light harness inside the socket for firmness as you suggest. In the end I'm down to replacing the tail light socket wire with a new 29A-13410-LS (have to research a bit further to confirm that part number is correct) but very strongly wish to accurately identify the true source of the problem before spending $'s. It's tough because you cannot see what is happening with the contacts when the bulb is inserted and locked in. Report back later. Any other thoughts in the interim welcome and thanks to you all who have weighed in so far! Weird. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 6-21-16 @ 8:05 AM
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-21-2016 @ 7:33 PM |
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Steve, I just went back over your initial posting where you mention the "fiber insulating plate holding the two brass spring loaded buttons". If I understand what you said correctly, I believe what you have is an aftermarket bulb receptacle, having one single spring to press the two brass connectors to contact the bulb. I've always considered these to be a poor design, likely to not make a solid connection. The original Ford part had two separate springs, each pressing only on it's own contact, theoretically less likely to fail. If this is indeed the case, then I've been right all these years and finally have the chance to prove my theory! Alan This message was edited by ford38v8 on 6-21-16 @ 7:34 PM
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| len47merc | -- 06-22-2016 @ 4:14 AM |
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Sorry I wasn't clear Alan. Mine is the original design and is the original wire and contacts with 2 springs. Sorry I can't help you with your theory here. Other than the coil/generator to VR harness, the battery-to-firewall and firewall-to-manifold ground straps I am running the original wires and harnesses throughout the entire balance of the car. I have not been able to locate the original design 2 buttons-each-with-a-spring and a brown fiber base plate/insulating disc like mine/the original yet - not sure who might carry them. Keeping an eye on eBay. Hopefully my efforts yesterday will solve the issue and I won't have to look further. Unfortunately if it does solve it I will not know why but fingers crossed on this next-to-last effort (Tom's suggestion my last resort if this cheesy sleeving over each contact and spring proves fruitless). Apologies for no update last night - tweaked my back tinkerin' with this darn tail light and it kept me prone all evening. Brake light's still workin' in the garage this morning - try to get it out for a drive after the heat of the day subsides and the back quits screaming at me. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 6-22-16 @ 4:45 AM
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| len47merc | -- 06-22-2016 @ 6:00 AM |
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Just to be sure - attached is a pic of the passenger side tail light wire contacts/base for my '47. I assume and believe these are the originals given both the driver and passenger side are identical, the clearly aging patina of both sides are consistent above and below the insulating base and for the length of the wires under the car, the bullet contacts on both sides show the same patina and difficulty in removing as the balance of the car and these are also identical to those I've seen on '46-'48 parts cars I found locally back when I was bringing this car back to life. Greatly appreciate knowing if otherwise. BTW - this is an old pic taken back when I was going through all grounds and contact points a few years back that shows the contacts as they were found after coming out of their 35-40 year slumber for the first time. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 6-22-16 @ 6:04 AM
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| cliftford | -- 06-22-2016 @ 6:40 AM |
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Steve, I don't mean to insult your inteligence, but i don't see anything in your posts about trying a different bulb. could this be a possibility?
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| len47merc | -- 06-22-2016 @ 6:51 AM |
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No problem cliftford - I did mention that I'd switched bulbs side-to-side with no change. I've also installed a new bulb with the same results but didn't mention that earlier. Again, if the last effort works with the insulating sleeves I'ma gonna let it ride. If not, Tom's suggestion wrto testing the strength of the connection between the wire and the brass round-head contact for the brake light. Then if nothing there perhaps it's a cold solder joint and I'll try cutting a short section of the wire, re-flowing the solder with new and reattaching the contacts at both the light socket end and the bullet connector end. Last resort I replace the whole kit'n kaboodle ~30" tail light wire harness without ever knowing, other than by deductive reasoning, what the root cause was - which absolutely flies against my grain! Update hopefully this evening. Oh my achin' back... Steve
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| len47merc | -- 06-22-2016 @ 12:32 PM |
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Ok guys - updating earlier than expected to give the Forum's brains additional time today to chew on this one. Advil'd-up the back and took the '47 out for a 60 mile cruise this morning city and highway with a dozen or so stops. Driver's side brake light working perfectly so far. Stopped in after 20 miles or so of city/country driving to see the wife and bring her lunch at work and brake light was working - longest it has worked in months. Then another 20 miles of city/country, light still working. Then back home city/country still working. First time in many months it was still working when I got home after many 30 min to 2 hour trips, each trip without fail the brake light was working when I left (after removing the bulb, further troubleshooting, tinkering with the contacts and reinserting the bulb) but was not working while on the drive or when I got the car home. The question is - why is it now working after insulating each contact in the socket? Attached is a pic of the insulating tubing I placed over each contact and spring inside the light socket (it actually is heat shrink insulation tubing that of course was not heated/shrunk on the terminal). Why this (seems so far to have) worked I cannot explain - need a better electrical guru (Tom - you out there?) to 'splain this one. What could be happening with the brake contact on this wire in this receptacle AFTER the light is inserted that: 1) Allows the light to work in the garage but caused the brake light to stop working after a drive of 5-10 miles with associated vibration, 2) Affected only the brake light on the driver's side and not also the driver's side tail light or the passenger side brake light and lastly 3) Apparently was resolved by placing this insulating tubing over each contact - How? Or do you think the tubing is only a facade and this will rear its head again - not enough wheel time to draw a 'resolved' conclusion? Or that from scr*w*ng with it so much over months I've now created good contact and it is only a coincidence that this happened at the same time the tubing was installed? Steve
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-22-2016 @ 1:27 PM |
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Steve, Glad you've got it under c control now! Sounds to me like the vibration -while -driving caused the now older, weaker springs to break contact, and the shrink tubing now allows some improvement there. It might be wise to get some replacement springs at the hardware store for next time! Alan
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| len47merc | -- 06-23-2016 @ 6:46 AM |
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The answers to my last two questions are: YES & YES. Out to the garage this morning - no driver's side brake light, all other lights working. Remove the lens, remove the bulb, put the bulb back in - brake light magically working (for how long it's anybody's guess now). Working on your terminal strength test next Tom. Going to go ahead and re-solder all connections while I have it out. Update later. I had my doubts on the insulation because there was no logical reasoning other than Alan's last response that made any sense and even then I can find no difference with my highly calibrated and sensitive hands in finger-pressure spring strength between the two terminals. The simplest things... Steve
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| len47merc | -- 06-23-2016 @ 9:12 AM |
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Do any of our sources sell the original style tail light harness as shown in the photos above? The few photos I've seen (example - C&G) show a different construction but perhaps they'll still 'work' yet not be original style. I strongly prefer staying original if at all possible. Any recommendations? Anything to steer clear of? Btw - Alan & Tom the terminals are rock solid, although the ~70 year old insulation on the wires under the insulating plate is starting to crumble badly with age. No sense in tinkering with this any further given what I found here. Steve
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| len47merc | -- 06-23-2016 @ 3:05 PM |
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For everyone - I've not been able to isolate the root cause here but after pulling it apart for the umpteenth time over the last several months I slid the insulating plate with springs back up the wires to test the terminal strength connection and the attached is what I found. Basically the ~70 year old wire insulation is falling apart along the full length of both wires. Whether this has anything to do with this brake light problem or not I do not know (the black wire is for the tail light) but I am going to suspend further work here and replace both sides with new (likely repops). Posting this in case anyone ever runs in to the same puzzling issue. Regards - Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 6-23-16 @ 3:08 PM
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| TomO | -- 06-24-2016 @ 7:14 AM |
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Steve, those do not appear to be the original wires. The original wires would have cloth covered insulation and the brake light wire insulation would be green. My suggestion is that you get the parts (wire, terminals and bullets) and use your old springs and insulating plate to repair the tail lights. Check the condition of the socket carefully to make sure that the bulb does not wobble in the socket and that it is firmly attached to the housing. I don't know how they painted your car, but be aware that removing the taillight housing from the car could damage the paint. The rubber gasket could be firmly attached to the paint and the housing and paint could peel when the housing is removed. Tom
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| len47merc | -- 06-24-2016 @ 12:03 PM |
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Thanks Tom and I agree with you. Because I never had to expose the wires under the plate before, and the prior owner (who inherited the car from an aunt who was the original owner) represented he never touched the car for the 3 years he drove it and the 35+ it was moth balled, I was stunned to see the insulation when sliding the insulation plate back. First and only wires I've ever seen on this '47 that were not woven and the correct color that I've ever come across. I also knew the wires should have been green and black woven from researching the wiring diagram in the Shop Manual and at Van Pelt, so someone must've changed these way - way back there. This said - ALAN - perhaps I can help you with your theory after all, albeit this 'repop' must've come from the 60's given the patina, dirt and road debris covering the wires underneath the car is consistent with that on the car's woven wiring harness which I've confirmed twice during Rouge judging to be the original. Was more than a bit embarrassed and disappointed I'd not caught this before and corrected it earlier, but under the mantra of full disclosure posted the pic anyway. Never had to go here so this one more than surprised me. I am researching a source for the original style. Going to change both while I'm at it, particularly given the crumbling state of the very aged insulation. This style is specific to the '46-'48 Mercurys. Thanks also Tom for the recommendations on the paint. I have no plans to remove the housing for the exact reason you stated. Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 6-24-16 @ 12:10 PM
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| ken ct. | -- 06-24-2016 @ 12:36 PM |
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Steve , John Brillman Co. can duplicate your original wires in color and fabric if you wish. Hes reasonable and great to work with. Hes in Mt. Jackson Va. phone toll free 1-888-274-5562 or 1540-477-4112 . hes a custom Harness maker,know him well. ken ct.
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| len47merc | -- 06-25-2016 @ 7:09 AM |
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Thanks Ken! Steve
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| anzael | -- 07-21-2016 @ 10:06 PM |
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Glad you've got it under c control now! Sounds to me like the vibration -while -driving caused the now older, weaker springs to break contact, and the shrink tubing now allows some improvement there. anzael.com
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| Chascwell2 | -- 08-05-2016 @ 5:03 PM |
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What kind of paint is on the fenders? Modern paint insulates between the fender and the body, try running a ground wire from the light attaching bolts to the vehicle frame. chascwell
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| 40merccoupe | -- 09-11-2016 @ 4:52 PM |
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Have you tried replacing the brake light switch?
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| mhsprecher | -- 09-11-2016 @ 6:19 PM |
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I had a devil of a time with my tail lights on my 39. Getting a better ground at the tail light made all the difference in the world. I also bought new wires from Tyree Harris. I have turn signals, so that is different from what you have.
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