| Tracker | -- 09-19-2015 @ 4:57 PM |
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Recently I installed a set of Wagner halogen lights on my 6 volt system stock 51 Merc. They seem to work fine and make a huge difference in lighting the road ahead. The only thing I'm concerned about they seem to create a larger than normal discharge on the ammeter as compared to the incandescent lights. When driving at speed, the needle barely comes back to normal but then drops off to 1/2 indication at idle. Do I need to do something to correct this...if so, what ? The generator is freshly re-built ...is there an adjustment I need to consider at the voltage regulator ? What about fuses ? Thanks for your help. Tracker
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-20-2015 @ 8:22 AM |
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Tracker, I wouldn't be concerned unless you take a trip or drive at night often. You don't want to overcharge your battery while driving daylight hours, and you say it does come back to zero at speed, so I'd say leave your regulator the way it is, and monitor your battery condition for under-charge after driving at night as opposed to driving in daylight. Alan
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| Tracker | -- 09-20-2015 @ 10:41 AM |
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Thanks for your reply Alan...I don't drive at night that much but just occasionally. The incandescent lights were too dim and marginal at best.were The Halogen addition came after much research on others who had done the same thing w/6 volt system but I never read where anyone had a significant ammeter drop. The lights are really bright and 100 % better than my old incandescent lights. I never considered the additional gen draw or the effect on the voltage regulator.
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| TomO | -- 09-20-2015 @ 4:19 PM |
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Unlike Alan, I am concerned with your ammeter reading. It is telling you that halogen bulbs are drawing much more current than the incandescent bulbs. This could be a problem if the wiring is not capable of handling the extra current. A fire could start. Turn on your lights for a while and feel the wires going to the headlights. If they are warm they are undersized for the halogen bulbs. If they are hot, they are in danger of starting a fire. Supereal installed halogens on his convertible, but he added heavier wires too power the lights. He also added relays to distribute the current more efficiently. Tom
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-20-2015 @ 6:30 PM |
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Good point, Tom. Alan
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| Tracker | -- 09-21-2015 @ 11:16 AM |
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Thanks Tom for another reference point. I will check the wiring as you suggest. If its warm or getting hot, what is the recommended procedure to make it safe ? I would like to make the necessary corrections to retain the halogen lights if possible...if not I will go back to the incandescent. As earlier stated, I do not use the car much at night but its only because of the poor light quality of the incandescent bulbs.
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| carcrazy | -- 09-21-2015 @ 3:02 PM |
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One thing you can do is use a headlight relay in the lighting circuit. You can purchase one from Randy at www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com. They come with wiring instructions to make the installation simple. You can also reach Randy at 785-632-3450. He is very knowledgeable on automotive electrical issues.
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| Tracker | -- 09-21-2015 @ 6:33 PM |
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Thanks for your reply. I will check this out with Randy & good suggestion. I checked the wiring schematic supplied by Rhode Island wiring on my car to find that the light switch has a 14 ga high beam and a 12 ga low beam wire which should be adequate but I'm still getting a lo reading on my amp guage. If a new relay will not relieve the low amps problem, I'm not going to take any further chances on creating a fire and will switch back to incandescent bad as I hate to do that. Tom has jolted me back to reality and Halogen just may not be good for this situation. I will decide after talking to Randy whom I know pretty well. Thanks again.
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| TomO | -- 09-22-2015 @ 6:34 AM |
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Tracker are these the headlights sold by NAPA? My understanding was that they draw the same amperage as the stock bulbs. Adding relays and using 12ga wire to power the headlights will give you the safety factor that you need. Your ammeter will still show a discharge while idling due to the current draw of the lights. Typically you would use the current headlight wiring to power the relay and string new 12 ga wire to the relay points to power the headlights. Tom
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| Tracker | -- 09-22-2015 @ 8:17 AM |
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Tom...I bought the Wagner 6 volt halogen lights o n line from Amazon. I can find nothing on specs. Spoke to Randy Rundle ...said Halogens not only will burn out my light switch but regardless they pull about 30% more draw. Recommended going back to incandescent and installing in line headlight relay in 6 volt. Said this would not only brighten incandescent lighting to current norms but will prevent lighting switch and dimmer switch failures on 6 volt systems. This has been a costly mistake on my part...next time I will seek advice from you & the rest of the guys who contributed to my request for help. Thanks again everyone. Hope this has been a help service to those running stock 6 volt systems. Tracker
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| TomO | -- 09-23-2015 @ 8:10 AM |
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Tracker, The headlight relay will increase the voltage to your headlights and make them brighter. You can also eliminate excess resistance in the headlight circuit and accomplish the same thing. The dimmer switch usually accounts for the most resistance in the circuit. If you operate it about 20 times with the lights on, you will be surprised by how much brighter they are. I explained how to find excess resistance in the post to Peder in this forum. Before installing the headlight relay, I would perform these voltage drop tests. The most common halogen headlight is from Drake and other hot rod suppliers. Those bulbs do draw much more current than the stock bulbs. The H6006 bulb is supposed to have the same current draw as the stock 6V sealed beam bulb. The H6024 draws more current than the stock bulb. Tom
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| Tracker | -- 09-23-2015 @ 8:16 PM |
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Tom The Wagner H Lights are the H6006. If that's the same draw as the originals, does that suggest I have another problem yet to be identified ? I did order the 6 volt hd relay from 5th Ave Garage anticipating that I would be going back to incandescent lights which means I will not be doing any night driving. Will the relay allow me to use the Wagner halogens or does that mean back to incandescent regardless. I admit I am confused on this issue. Tracker
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| TomO | -- 09-24-2015 @ 5:36 AM |
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Tracker, You probably have excess resistance in the headlight circuit. Read this article and let me know if it answers your questions. http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uses/comunidad/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/electrical/diagnosevoltdrop Tom
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| Tracker | -- 09-25-2015 @ 2:17 PM |
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Thanks Tom...I will keep this for future reference & have read it 5 times. I started with grounds & each time the incandescent lights did get a bit brighter. Then I used the flasher about 20 times...what that does I cannot imagine but the negative ammeter read went away entirely. Then I put the Wagner halogens back in and ended up with a heavy draw down on the ammeter while running above idle. I let the car run about 15 minutes but the light wires never heated up that I could tell. The lights are 4-5 times brighter but the negative draw down has not substantially improved. I'm not happy about that so my plan is to forget the Halogens and put the 5th Avenue relay in I'm expecting and go back to incandescent lighting & forget night driving unless the inline relay kicks everything up a notch so I can see to drive. Thanks again for your expertise Tom and your always willingness to share your knowledge...its an invaluable aid to wannabe mechanics like myself. tracker
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| len47merc | -- 09-25-2015 @ 6:22 PM |
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Tracker - I have kept up with this discussion with keen interest as when starting my first project I had the same dilemma as you. With help and direction from each and every one of the respondents above to your (this) post I was able to achieve very bright, 6V neg ground original incandescent headlights with a completely stock system. The effort included not only focused clean-up of ALL lighting, dimmer switch/switches general and charging ground points but also work on the overall wiring, generator and voltage regulator. In the end I can not be happier with the brightness of the stock lights at night and routinely have people flashing me when I fail to turn off the brights (prior no one bothered as the lights were too dim to be of concern). As a now preservationist versus 'restorationist' I am also glad to have stayed true to the original design using all the original hardware and persevered through the frustration to achieve a positive result. Others have heard this from me before - my '47's stock 6V incandescent lights are brighter than a neighbor's '54's which was converted to 12V without troubleshooting and addressing all the root causes of his 'dim' 6V headlights. Making any conversion without researching and addressing all of the root causes and problems in your current system will likely lead to other problems down the road with your new set-up, whatever it may be. What I am trying to say is don't give up on driving at night - those 6V lights can and will give you all the light you need to drive your car at the speeds it was designed for - without discharging. Stick with these guys (they really know their stuff!), stay patient, ask more questions and you will be surprised by how well those 6V lights will perform. Hate to see you throw in the towel on any aspect here when with a bit more effort you can achieve your goal. EDIT - IMHO assuming you do stay with original incandescent lighting, time and effort spent optimizing the power feed/loop to your headlights should negate the need for (and offset the time and effort for) a relay install. As well, it will help you with other areas that may not be as obvious problems to you now and/or may be surprise problems in the future. For what it's worth - Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 9-26-15 @ 4:41 AM
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| TomO | -- 09-26-2015 @ 7:39 AM |
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Tracker, Using the dimmer switch ("flasher") 20 times, cleaned some of the corrosion off of the switch contacts. The ground circuit is just as important as the voltage circuit. Most of the concern with the grounding circuit came with the use of electronic circuits that are low amperage. The use of plastics for light housings added to the concern. Some car manufacturers added a ground terminal in the trunk that was just riveted to the body. These used to rust out frequently causing grounding problems. In my experience with cars built from 1932-1953, the supply side of the high current circuits like the headlights and starter circuit are more likely to have excessive resistance in them that the ground circuit. The best way to isolate the excessive resistance is with a voltage drop test. Tom
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| Tracker | -- 09-26-2015 @ 7:49 AM |
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Len...thanks for your insightful comments. I could not be happier with the response I got on this from the most knowledgeable mechanics on the planet. I am a long way from throwing in the towel...a fellow Merc guy told me about a halogen light harness offered by Ron Francis that may be the solution to using halogen lights without fear of frying either the dimmer or light switch..I'm looking at that as an alternative. The halogens are just so much brighter I'm still working on it. Thanks again. Tracker
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| Tracker | -- 09-26-2015 @ 8:05 AM |
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Tom...thanks again...I could not imagine what pumping the flasher was doing but it definitely improved the incandescent lighting by a factor of 1x. This car is a convertible with a single small cowl mounted groundstrap mounted to a bolt head on the fuel pump stand. Never liked that too much so I added a new woven ground strap for the frame direct to the engine. That seemed to improve everything from the radio to the lights ..then I steel wool polished every light contact and on the dimmer switch. The ammeter draw went away entirely with the Halogen lights. My supplier contacts tell me sooner or later the Halogens will take out either my light switch or my dimmer or both. Ron Francis sells an adapter harness specifically to avoid this problem. Pricey but perhaps a safe alternative to use the Halogen lights. The xtra brightness is well worth the effort. Thanks again.
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| len47merc | -- 09-26-2015 @ 11:47 AM |
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Tracker - my solutions ended up being more fundamental than yours. All of the following 'connections' (in addition to wiring terminations/plugs) were addressed for the headlights and taillights and each had an impact on brightness. Those producing the greatest impact on the headlight and taillight brightness were items 1/2 and 3/4, respectively, plus 10 below, although all had degrees of impact on the lights and other areas: 1) Headlight-to-bucket 2) Bucket-to-fender 3) Taillight-to-housing 4) Housing-to-quarter panel 5) Fender-to-frame 6) Fender-to-body 7) Quarter panel-to-frame 8) Quarter panel-to-body 9) Body-to-frame (multiple locations) 10) Battery-to-body/firewall 11) Body/firewall-to-engine 12) Battery-to-solenoid 13) Solenoid-to-starter 14) Starter-to-block/trans housing Btw, I installed original NOS woven straps from the pos battery terminal to the firewall and from the firewall to the 2nd passenger side manifold bolt (counting from the rear, placing it where the original was found). Also, my dimmer and light switches were NOT players on headlight brightness. Guess I've become too much of a purist here but hate to see the halogens on anything other than customs/modifieds and perhaps push too hard to address all possible probs in support of the original incandescents, particularly given how the input from these guys above got them so bright. Tom's electrical/grounding diagnosis' & processes are always on the mark, and Alan's and carcrazy's points are always insightful as well. Sounds like you are driving quite a bit at night and cannot get the incandescents where you want them, though I am more than satisfied with mine. Be sure to give carcrazy's very good suggestion of a relay serious consideration if you ultimately decide to stay with the halogens and Good Luck with your project! Steve This message was edited by len47merc on 9-26-15 @ 12:29 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-26-2015 @ 5:16 PM |
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Tracker, I can't help making one more comment... Salesmanship always seems to trump solid advice. It is human nature to readily accept the pitchman's fix-all product, while being skeptical of advice given without a profit motive. Alan
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| len47merc | -- 09-26-2015 @ 5:50 PM |
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Well said Alan. Ditto. Steve
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| Tracker | -- 09-26-2015 @ 11:48 PM |
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Len ..to the contrary, I rarely drive this car at night unless forced to for some reason. I did not pursue the incandescent fix as far as you did but far enough to see that I was not making much appreciable headway. Tonight, I went on the road for a short stretch with the Halogens and for once felt comfortable. Thats what started this whole thread...previously I simply could not see well enough to drive safely with the dim lights. May not be the right fix but I'm going to pursue the in line relay idea & see how it goes. I'll report back later when the relay is installed. Thanks again for all your input...I appreciate it. Tracker
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| Tracker | -- 09-26-2015 @ 11:59 PM |
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Allan..thanks for your thoughts on this...not quite sure I follow 100 % ...all of the fixes I have pursued came from forum members. On my own, I admit I did not have a clue...all I knew for certain. the halogens will allow me the right amount of light transmission to begin taking the car out at night on occasion but I do believe the advanced technology of the harness I mentioned from Ron Francis will help me protect the dimmer and light switch. Since I have done every thing suggested by Tom, Car Crazy & len...I am at the crossover point of making the halogens work. No one would ever know unless I told them so the car for all intents maintains its original look. Thanks again to everyone....I learned a ton on this one. Tracker
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| len47merc | -- 09-27-2015 @ 5:10 AM |
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Tracker - you're welcome. When you reach your final resolve with your headlights post us an update if you will on what you learned during the process and the end results achieved. It will be good for us all to hear and learn from. Very glad to hear your headlight brightness and associated discharging concerns are resolved! Steve
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| ford38v8 | -- 09-27-2015 @ 9:01 AM |
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Tracker, the good advice I spoke about was regarding the use of relays. I haven't heard about a breakthrough in the development of wire harnesses. Perhaps the Ron Francis product also incorporates relays, but relays are hardly "new technology". Alan
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| TomO | -- 09-29-2015 @ 8:10 AM |
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Tracker, You are welcome to any advice that I have to give and I appreciate the way that you use the advice that is given on the Forum. I agree that you needed the ground strap from the engine. That should have been there all along. The relay circuit will reduce the problems with reduced voltage to the headlights, but it may not save your headlight switch and dimmer switch. They may just decide to fail in another way. The switches are made to take the current of the 50/40Watt headlight bulbs and the lack of use is the source of corrosion. Each time you use the switch, the contacts wipe against each other and clean the contacts. The lower current draw of the relay will be more susceptible to failure due to corrosion of the contacts. The higher and normal current draw of the headlights will burn through slight corrosion. What I am trying to get across is that there is no substitute for good maintenance and frequent use of the car and all of its functions and every time that you make a change from stock, you take a chance on adding problems or changing the effect of a problem. Tom
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| Tracker | -- 09-30-2015 @ 6:18 AM |
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Thanks Tom...being a wannbe mechanic I rely heavily on your advice and the advice of others who responded to learn the art of repairing a 1951 vintage auto. Using the article you posted and the example of Len I went through the entire sequence of steel wool polishing every thing I could reach including the fuse panel. I did a voltage drop and it immediately led me to the dimmer switch which was visibly corroded. I changed it out and even the halogens got brighter. I got the inline relay but I have not installed it and probably won't. I changed out corroded bulbs in the dash, courtesy lights, dome lights, tail lights m, etc and every thing is brighter. I live on the Gulf Coast where corrosion of nearly anything is made worse by the high humidity we get in the summer mos....a closed garage where I keep the car has only a fan & doesn't do much . The key in understanding whats going on was your comment about pumping the light flasher 20x...that actually worked and led me to the voltage drop which identified what appears to have been 90 % of the problem. I am going to use the halogens and took a long drive last night & could actually see where I was going. The main lesson I take away from all this is to use the car more & not let it sit so long unused . Again, I cannot thank you and all the others enough for your inputs. I am more that satisfied with the end result of bright lights, no ammeter discharge and overall good feeling about the car. Tracker
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| TomO | -- 09-30-2015 @ 7:03 AM |
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Tracker, I am glad that you are satisfied with the electrical system on your car. It does make driving more enjoyable when you do not have to worry. The whiter color of the halogen lights is probably better for old guys, it makes object stand out a little better. A little electrical light bulb grease on the bulbs base and connectors will make them last longer. Tom
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