| plymboy | -- 06-25-2015 @ 3:05 PM |
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In speaking with several members the concensus was that Judging has over the years been loosened up to improve the satisfaction with the partisapents. Can anyone comment on this....I know most of us strive to make our cars authenic...I know I do. Can someone post a current juding sheet for review
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-25-2015 @ 3:28 PM |
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Welcome to the V8 club forum. I've been in the club for going on 25 years, and have been a judge for most of that time. In my experience, there has never been a "slackening" of standards. We are proud of the fact that the V8 club judging standards remain at a high standard, and endeavor to ensure that all are judged equally, and as Henry made them. For the judging sheets, go to the top of this page and click on Back To Home Page. On the Home Page, click on Forms from the list on the left side. Alan
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| kubes40 | -- 06-25-2015 @ 4:54 PM |
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With all due respect I disagree entirely with Alan. This "don't kill the car" we hear at each and every judges meeting has seemingly become a "make sure everyone feels good" attitude. I remain from the school that taught not everyone wins. This is not pre-school T-ball after all. Yes, there remains some judges that are strict and actually know what they are judging. I had a great team at Concord judging the '40 class. Perhaps the best team I've worked with to date. Still, too often for my liking, the judges have little to no experience and many cars score much higher than they deserve. A perfect example is a red '40 coupe that was at Concord. This car had two previous Dearborn awards to its claim. TWO. It was judged at Concord a (very) generous 800 points. GENEROUS. Someone, anyone, please tell me how this car EVER received TWO previous Dearborn awards. I was taught decades ago and from experience have come to realize there is much truth in the following equation: It requires "X" amount of time and money to restore a car to 90%. It requires DOUBLE that (2X) to restore a car to 100%. I have restored (13) 1939 - 1940 Fords to date. The worst scored 996 points. I feel that earns me a little credibility in my opinions. It pains me to realize guys "get a pass" so to speak because (example) authentic spark plugs are nearly impossible to find and when found are profoundly expensive. Yep, that's very true, However, that is only one reason why very few cars reach TRUE #1 condition. We all make choices. Want to win (honestly) - it requires "2X". A few years back, at one of the judges meetings the audience was told that non-authentic bumpers on '40 Fords would be allowed as authentic bumpers are becoming scarce and are costly to plate. I, and others like me that strive for TRUE #1 restorations could not believe what we'd heard. "Are you kidding?" was my gut reaction. There was a time when winning Dearborn status meant something. Not so much anymore. When it meant something a guy could count on a 998 point car being darn near perfect and buying it sight - unseen. Now? Go back and re-read the "red coupe" debacle. By the way, I've been a member for 41 years. Respectfully, Mike "Kube" Kubarth This message was edited by kubes40 on 6-25-15 @ 4:56 PM
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| ford38v8 | -- 06-25-2015 @ 8:59 PM |
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I certainly agree with Mike on the examples he cites (repop bumpers and spark plugs), but not knowing the particulars of the concourse incident, I cannot offer any insight, however, the time and place for those discussions are before the field is released, and certainly not in a public forum as I'm sure Mike is well aware. I call on Mike to edit his post now, as there is nothing to be gained in identifying a certain car as being unworthy of an award. I do think there has been a widespread misunderstanding on the "don't kill the car" directive. In my opinion, the intent of that directive was to devote as much time and effort on one car as another. As we all know, it takes little time to judge a high point car, and a great deal of time to identify and correctly document issues with lower scoring cars, and as a result there comes a point when so many deductions have been made that to continue would be beating a dead horse (Pun unintended). We have, I believe, succeeded in our goal of preventing politics from interfering with the judging process in these later years, but that is an ongoing struggle in all clubs, I fear. While we have elevated our base of knowledge on how the cars were presented as new, we have not ensured that this knowledge be disseminated properly among all judges and owners, an issue that seems not to have improved as much as it could. Alan
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| kubes40 | -- 06-26-2015 @ 7:21 AM |
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Alan, As with most discussions, this one is not as simple as a few words here and there might make it. I do agree with you, at least as far as I have experienced, that politics seem to play a less significant role than in years past. That is a great thing. Your comment in regard to owners and judges not having the "latest" knowledge available is spot on. Which brings up a number of issues. The information is "out there" for those so inclined to locate it. I receive emails on a daily basis from '39 - '40 Ford owners. I answer each and every one to the best of my ability. And, hopefully, this has aided many in their efforts. A topic which has been touched upon recently is the Clubs responsibility to offer high quality judging to entrants upon the concourse. Owners that spend countless hours (and subsequently dollars) on their vehicles deserve no less. As for editing my previous post??? Respectfully I decline. The owner of that vehicle was without question the most rude individual I have ever dealt with on the concourse. When I met with him to go over his sheets the very first thing he muttered was "All of you a--h---s are the same". NOT a good way to start any conversation. During the course of our "talk" he mentioned no less than five additional times how "All judges are a--h---s". I remained calm and polite and offered a thorough explanation of the judged results. Something this man did not deserve. Prior to any response from you or others, please understand I was advised by others with MUCH concourse (judging) experience that this man was going to be a "problem". I will not mention by name those that had advised me of this but rest assured they have at least as much (and more in one particular case) experience than myself. Off the concourse, I would speak of this freely to the man's face. It is the truth and nothing I'd be hesitant to share. On the concourse I was of course obligated to represent the club in a polite manner. By the way, as of this morning I have received no less than three individual emails concurring with my previous post. With due respect, Mike Mike
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| woodiewagon46 | -- 06-26-2015 @ 8:40 AM |
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Mike, I commend and admire your restraint. If that clown called me an a--hole I would have walked away and refused to judge his car. In the future perhaps the Chief Judge or Meet Chairman might have a "talk" with guy's like him. Keep up the good work, I don't personally know you but I know of your reputation and value to our hobby.
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| Kenneth M. | -- 06-26-2015 @ 6:37 PM |
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Mike had his team judge my 40. I had no problem with Mike. He went out of his way to help me. Yes he tough but he knows the 40 very well. Now I will correct what he found wrong. Kenneth M. Stewart
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| VT/JeffH | -- 06-27-2015 @ 1:21 PM |
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All I will say right now is, Mike, you should be delighted you weren't judging in Tahoe! TOTALLY NO SLIGHT ON THAT MEET, TOP NOTCH! But our '35-6 team had some interesting cars to judge, thankfully no really off the carts owners for our Deputy to interface with. [Edit, Examples of 'interesting' cars include those with hydraulic instead of mechanical brakes, or non-stock paint color.] Readers, please believe me when I say THANK YOU to everyone who brought/bring cars to point judged meets. Full Disclosure: My (one) car has never been point judged. I know some, but not all of it's flaws, but love driving it anyway. Off for 200 miles tomorrow, weather permitting! This message was edited by VT/JeffH on 6-27-15 @ 2:34 PM
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| trjford8 | -- 06-27-2015 @ 8:25 PM |
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As a 41 year member of this club who has judged at every meet I have attended, I would have stopped judging this car and moved on to the next one. Calling judges or a judge an a**h^le is totally unacceptable. If you read the by-laws, this man could be ejected from the club for this behavior. One guy like this would be no loss to this club. I commend the judging team for sticking with the mission, but like woodiewagon46, I would have politely walked away and moved to the next car. As volunteers, we have no obligation to tolerate this kind of behavior. I would hope at future meets that this man be told up front that any name calling or harassment of the judges will cause him to be ejected from the meet and follow through with ejecting him from the club. It may sound harsh, but we don't need anyone with this boorish behavior in our midst. He's probably already "bad mouthing" the club so tossing him out isn't going to change his attitude.
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